Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

silverwhistle

Following on from my point about VAT rates not helping:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/06/uk-risks-losing-out-europe-home-battery-boom-report-warns

And sorry, JkenH, for all your professed support of renewables you do come across as very negative about the issue. Squirrel stories about steam railways don't help. Of course there may well be higher costs to the imported coal due to a smaller market, so my next ticket on the IOW railway may cost a little more, but what do you suggest is an alternative?



I think most of us here are looking for new ideas, not complaints about change.

pile-o-stone

GreatApe wrote: »

I'd suggest putting him on ignore just in case

Sorry JKenH

Already done. I have no interest in reading pages and pages of pro-fossil fuel, pro-nuclear power and anti-RE propaganda on a site I come to for information and discussion on clean, renewable energies.

If i was interested in reading about climate change denial, nuclear/fossil fuel promotion and anti-renewables I'd subscribe to the Daily Mail.

I'll lose nothing from having you on ignore (and any other usernames you may use).

GreatApe

JKenH wrote: »

Pro FF apologist or whatever label you want to apply, I am actually pro renewables. I am however a realist as it seems are you, in practice if not in thought.

As @Michaels pointed out there is a cost to being green and unless the government or someone else is picking up the tab the price is too high for most of us. Yes, we will tinker at the edges with a bit of insulation and some LED light bulbs if we think our wallet will benefit but most of us won’t dip our hands very deep into our pockets to save the world. One only has to read the solar pv battery thread to see some of the most fervent green posters arguing it simply isn’t worth it to them to do it.

Is your solution to the EV problem really for the government to make your employer charge your car?

Personal responsibility is a thing of the past - everything is someone else’s fault or responsibility.

Yes, it may ultimately be necessary for the government to take the lead but is it good enough for those who espouse green causes to just sit on their hands and call anyone who suggests they do otherwise a FF apologist?

There are some vested interests and some actions which could have been taken which were zero or negative cost. The main one is why were more interconntors to northern France not built? The technology existed and the existing interconntor has been a success

First one which was 2GW came online 1985 the next one is due 2020 some 35 years later!

If the UK had built say 2GW in 1987 and 2GW in 1989 and 2GW in 1991 then we would have burnt a lot less coal and gas some 1,100TWh less

Anyway this 6GW that wasn't built is finally being built with 5.4GW links to France due to come online in the next 4 years (2 links within 12 months) so I guess better late than never but a generation too late nonetheless

---

Likewise the last nuclear plant in the UK was built on time and to budget. The £2 billion (£5.3 billion in today's money) sizewell B which was up and running in 8 years (started building 1988 and generating 1995). If we had built one per year until 2020 the UK would be 90% non fossil today in its grid today

With the links to Norway and France (existing & under construction) a lot of the time we would be 100% non fossil in the grid with some 5-10% annually as peaking plants. 25-50 grams/kWh a very low FF grid!

---

My best guess is and I've not thought about this a huge amount is that the central generation board didn't want to displace it's coal fleet with affordable on time on budget nuclear aka sizewell B or nuclear imports form France

pile-o-stone

Interesting medical report about the health benefits we will enjoy as we move away from coal power stations (it also mentions the health impact of gas powered stations too). The main document is a PDF linked to the site below:

https://www.bma.org.uk/news/2017/september/move-to-phase-out-coal-power

"The effects of air pollution disproportionately impact those in our society who are most vulnerable, in particular, children and those
already suffering from chronic illness.

Of particular concern, air pollution from coal-fired power has also been linked to low-birth weight and preterm delivery as a result of maternal exposure.

To this end, estimates suggest that coal-fired power is responsible for an additional 2,900 deaths every year in the UK, and an additional £6.7bn in costs to the NHS1"

GreatApe

silverwhistle wrote: »

Following on from my point about VAT rates not helping:

And sorry, JkenH, for all your professed support of renewables you do come across as very negative about the issue. Squirrel stories about steam railways don't help. Of course there may well be higher costs to the imported coal due to a smaller market, so my next ticket on the IOW railway may cost a little more, but what do you suggest is an alternative?

I think most of us here are looking for new ideas, not complaints about change.

This isn't an engineering company formed to change the way energy is generated it's about half a dozen hobbyists discussing their hobbies which is fine but don't ask the state to make your hobby a positive return on investment. Hobbies cost money just accept it as a cost for your personal enjoyment

As also someone somewhat interested in the topic the solution is pretty clear

Software.

Software solves transport
Software solves manufacturing
Software solves construction
Software solves everything so much so that we will become semi immortal so much so that earth will be turned into a planet sized spaceship so we can save it from an expanding sun

With software which will be close to AI if not fully autonomous self aware AI (which will happen imo but we don't need GAI) everything becomes more or less free.
I think this is about 10-30 years out

At that point we will rapidly very rapidly move away from fossil fuel useage because when coal is 'free', when nuclear is 'free' and wind and Interconnectors are 'free' the public will opt for free wind/PV and Interconnectors. The AI software will build this stuff 100 X faster than humans could. A 8 year nuclear power station might be built in 8 weeks. An 80 year wind/PV/interconntors project might be done in 80 weeks

These robots will be the true exponential function

Even if it takes a robot one month to build a robot and that robot takes one month to build a robot.... Within 40 months you have a drops army that outnumbers humans 100x

With a trillion worker droids you can build anything and everything
We probably won't have that many droids
0.5 billion droids for a world of 10 billion humans will probably be sufficient
They'd do all the work and the world's output would still be 10 X today

Assuming they let biology stay in existence

GreatApe

pile-o-stone wrote: »

Interesting medical report about the health benefits we will enjoy as we move away from coal power stations (it also mentions the health impact of gas powered stations too). The main document is a PDF linked to the site below:

https://www.bma.org.uk/news/2017/september/move-to-phase-out-coal-power

"The effects of air pollution disproportionately impact those in our society who are most vulnerable, in particular, children and those
already suffering from chronic illness.

Of particular concern, air pollution from coal-fired power has also been linked to low-birth weight and preterm delivery as a result of maternal exposure.

To this end, estimates suggest that coal-fired power is responsible for an additional 2,900 deaths every year in the UK, and an additional £6.7bn in costs to the NHS1"

Seeing as coal burn has gone down 90% over the last 5 years One would expect the NHS is flush with cash, new borns are fatter than ever, and life expectancy in the UK is noticeably up!

Has that actually happened.....no?

I guess those estimates of the heath impact of coal burning were....maybe...a tad.... exaggerated?

joefizz

Let me throw in a couple of hand grenades then disappear off again...

GreatApe wrote: »

Software.

Software solves transport
Software solves manufacturing
Software solves construction
Software solves everything so much so that we will become semi immortal so much so that earth will be turned into a planet sized spaceship so we can save it from an expanding sun

Try telling that to the Boeing 737 passengers who went into the ground like an arrow...


I do admire your optimism though so I guess you havent been around software engineers a lot.

I was once on a psos seminar with the guys who wrote the code for Airbus. They didnt travel to the seminar on an airbus. Their rational was that they could only test the code to the best of their ability. I had a look around, we were standing, wrote off, singing, in covent garden, at 2am. I got his point.
Well what about going on the 777 then? Well we didnt write that software and dont know the guys at Boeing.


They probably walk everywhere now.


Im misquoting or paraphrasing but for some reason a quote along these lines is attributed to an astonaut sitting on top of a Saturn 5 rocket. (could be from the Apollo 13 movie)
A couple of weeks ago standing below a Saturn 5 I couldnt help but marvel at what humans are capable of, they live in inhospitable places and have either adapted or adapted their environment to suit. There is very little we cant achieve if we put our mind to it, however going back to the Saturn 5...
'we are sitting on the explosive force of the hiroshima bombs, 2 million moving parts.'
'Yes, and all built by the lowest bidder.'



I do like the idea of a centralised nuclear hot water system, we could put the bits in the houses/factories/old folks homes in glass piping so when it glows in the dark it would save on lighting bills as well.
To be fair though it only takes 30 odd years after a disaster to start producing artisan vodka... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49251471



Oh and speaking as a former engineer (some would say never left) in all the forums discussions about nuclear piping and hot water, not one person (I think) mentioned that you dont need return pipes. (Hellishedi for example on what to do with hot water)

Even if you did you wouldnt need that long a circuit because you could use intermediate heat exchangers with solar/battery backup.
Even my hot tub advice is to keep the 'normal' temperature below final use temperature and only raise when about to be used...
..just throwing those ideas into the mix ;-)


On my recent trip to the US, every single place I stopped had a tesla charger. I mean every single place, I was looking. Reminded me a lot of where their used to be coin call boxes... ...that must have been expensive, but its in place...



Oh and those mentioning US and big oil, again IIRC the US only has one company in the top ten of big oil these days (the UK has 2). Wait on the shale implosion and see how that works out for them...
Big Oil is not going away as its the only thing capable of building the solar panels/batteries/nuclear power stations/growing crops etc etc etc.
Thats why probably every single person reading this forum who has any sort of a pension has a stake in big oil ownership....


Right thats the blue touch paper lit, Im away to get the popcorn and sit on the sidelines... ;-)

pile-o-stone

joefizz wrote: »

I do like the idea of a centralised nuclear hot water system, we could put the bits in the houses/factories/old folks homes in glass piping so when it glows in the dark it would save on lighting bills as well.

That cracked me up. :rotfl:

I was also rolling in laughter at that poster telling us off for being hobbyists and trying to direct global policy on RE and then posting pages of his nuclear heating idea as though it will be seen by a government minister and become government policy, or indeed that we small band of 'hobbyists' could get our spanners and plutonium out and make a start. LOL, you couldn't make it up.

Martyn1981

pile-o-stone wrote: »

Interesting medical report about the health benefits we will enjoy as we move away from coal power stations (it also mentions the health impact of gas powered stations too). The main document is a PDF linked to the site below:

https://www.bma.org.uk/news/2017/september/move-to-phase-out-coal-power

"The effects of air pollution disproportionately impact those in our society who are most vulnerable, in particular, children and those
already suffering from chronic illness.

Of particular concern, air pollution from coal-fired power has also been linked to low-birth weight and preterm delivery as a result of maternal exposure.

To this end, estimates suggest that coal-fired power is responsible for an additional 2,900 deaths every year in the UK, and an additional £6.7bn in costs to the NHS1"

But pollution from coal burning and ICEV's doesn't cause any harm ...... does it? After all, if my fact based support for renewables on a green and ethical energy thread, on a green and ethical board can result in endless attacks from someone who doesn't respect my fact based opinion (or facts in general), then imagine what they would post about factless, negative, anti-RE, pro pollution claims if they were made? :rotfl:


And in the spirit of respecting opinions, can I ask you to be more accepting of anti-RE hard right Daily Mail propaganda.

pile-o-stone wrote: »

If i was interested in reading about climate change denial, nuclear/fossil fuel promotion and anti-renewables I'd subscribe to the Daily Mail.

Not all RE is nice to look at, just look at this article fairly explaining how a field of PV can blight an idylic area.

An idyll blighted by 18,000 solar panels: Seen from the sky, the reality of alternative energy

I think the DM make a fair point. If I owned a helicopter, and could therefore see over hedge and tree lines, I'd be sick to my core at the view being spoilt by a field of PV.

In fact I'd be so upset, I'd probably edit my photos (and the truth) to exclude the beautiful oil refinery approx one mile to the north:

PV to the right of Langley Tavern

Have fun playing 'hunt the oil refinery'. Though in fairness one of the DM's photos does just include some sea tankers top LHS.

JKenH

Mart, you have a sense of humour after all. :rotfl: