Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

michaels

So looking at some of the charts gas has regularly been going down to 5GW so in other words once we add 50% more wind than now we will be in to curtailment - perhaps an additional 3GW more if we include the interconnectors as well.

What is the timescale for this level of wind build out?

What impact would that have on the economics of wind once we are into curtailment, would we still have to pay for it under the CFD regime?

zeupater

michaels wrote: »

Where are we on using hydrogen to store excess renewable energy to be distributed via the existing natural gas infrastructure?

Hi

... as well as various sources of biogas etc which aren't classified as a 'fossil fuel'.

I really find it quite interesting that although CHP on both a microgeneration & small scale district heating basis would be heavily impacted by the removal of infrastructure, there seems to have been no announcement concerning this being made by either Ofgem or BEIS ... perhaps they've been totally sidelined by the announcement but if not the conclusion regarding the future of the gas delivery infrastructure may simply be more unnecessary & unwelcome agitating noise ...

HTH
Z

michaels

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

... as well as various sources of biogas etc which aren't classified as a 'fossil fuel'.

I really find it quite interesting that although CHP on both a microgeneration & small scale district heating basis would be heavily impacted by the removal of infrastructure, there seems to have been no announcement concerning this be either Ofgem or BEIS ... perhaps they've been totally sidelined by the announcement but if not the conclusion regarding the future of the gas delivery infrastructure may simply be more unnecessary & unwelcome agitating noise ...

HTH
Z

As soon as I am rich enough to afford an indoor swimming pool I reckon a CHP boiler and the FIT available will mean I can heat it, run the MHRV and charge the Tesla for free.....

zeupater

michaels wrote: »

As soon as I am rich enough to afford an indoor swimming pool I reckon a CHP boiler and the FIT available will mean I can heat it, run the MHRV and charge the Tesla for free.....

Hi

I think you misunderstand the term CHP and what it would mean in terms of microgeneration as they would include both local mechanical generation within a modified technology boiler or through using chemical generation using fuel-cells, both of which would provide thermal & electrical energy on a local basis ... hence Combined Heat & Power ...

Nothing to do with biomass boilers or swimming pools at all, as neither of which generate electricity and certainly has nothing to do with EVs! As previously stated, unless you've misunderstood the technology & the term involved, I really don't follow your point at all! ....

HTH
Z

pile-o-stone

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

I think you misunderstand the term CHP and what it would mean in terms of microgeneration as they would include both local mechanical generation within a modified technology boiler or through using chemical generation using fuel-cells, both of which would provide thermal & electrical energy on a local basis ... hence Combined Heat & Power ...

Nothing to do with biomass boilers or swimming pools at all, as neither of which generate electricity and certainly has nothing to do with EVs! As previously stated, unless you've misunderstood the technology & the term involved, I really don't follow your point at all! ....

HTH
Z

CHP systems need somewhere to dump the heat in order to keep generating electricity. A standard sized domestic hot water cylinder would soon reach max temp, and so the CHP would have to shut down. A larger tank such as a thermal store would take longer to heat, but would eventually have the same result. A swimming pool on the other hand would pretty much take an infinite amount of heat from the CHP and so the system could run 24/7.

If it's running 24/7 then it will be generating a lot of electricity, probably more than you could use, and so you could charge the EV and run the Heat Recovery ventilation system (MHRV) with the excess energy.

I'm not sure where biomass boilers came from?

zeupater

pile-o-stone wrote: »

CHP systems need somewhere to dump the heat in order to keep generating electricity. A standard sized domestic hot water cylinder would soon reach max temp, and so the CHP would have to shut down. A larger tank such as a thermal store would take longer to heat, but would eventually have the same result. A swimming pool on the other hand would pretty much take an infinite amount of heat from the CHP and so the system could run 24/7.

If it's running 24/7 then it will be generating a lot of electricity, probably more than you could use, and so you could charge the EV and run the Heat Recovery ventilation system (MHRV) with the excess energy.

I'm not sure where biomass boilers came from?

Hi

Seems you're missing the point too ...

We're looking at improvements to efficiency which are required, so let's look at solutions ...

1. Fuel cell systems can operate at an overall 90%+ efficiency, with useful energy being split approx evenly between heat & electricity

2. A Heatpump system for an average sized well insulated new build home could be sized at ~5kW duty, which with an operating SCOP of around 3.0 to 4.0 would likely average well under 1kW of electricity consumption when running, so an average mid-winter space heating demand of (say) 40kWh/day could be provided in 12 hours by the heat-pump running at ~70% of nominal capacity and consuming less than 13kWh of energy.

Using the above example we could describe a grid-tied system where a micro-CHP fuel cell system with a nominal ~1kW generation rating would produce sufficient energy to power the heat-pump and use the co-generation heat to either top-up the temperature of the space heating circuit (therefore reducing the duty on the heat-pump, and therefore the energy consumed by ~20%) or provide somewhere around 7kWh.t of energy to stored DHW.

As illustrated using the example above, there's no need for large scale heat-dumps at all as the technologies fit well into an overall efficiency strategy for well insulated new build homes ... of course, as we move away from the dark days of mid-winter the heating demand reduces and provision of DHW increasingly becomes the responsibility of solar PV with proportional diversion technologies. Importantly though, the demand for gas is reduced by a margin which allows for provision from renewable sources without sacrificing too much land area which is currently dedicated to food farming, leaving meat as a viable option for those who still like to eat it! ....




Energy efficiency in a new build home, all without the need for heating indoor swimming pools to dump excess thermal energy! ... :cool:;)

HTH
Z

Martyn1981

michaels wrote: »

As soon as I am rich enough to afford an indoor swimming pool I reckon a CHP boiler and the FIT available will mean I can heat it, run the MHRV and charge the Tesla for free.....

Hmmmmm, isn't that the mistake the Irish made, in that they didn't place a cap on the amount of heat generation that was eligible? So folk could run the boilers 24/7, with windows and doors open - cash for ash.

I'm pretty sure, for us, there's cap based on the assessed space heating needs, after which subsidies would stop. So you might heat the house, but I'm not sure the pool would be eligible.

michaels

pile-o-stone wrote: »

CHP systems need somewhere to dump the heat in order to keep generating electricity. A standard sized domestic hot water cylinder would soon reach max temp, and so the CHP would have to shut down. A larger tank such as a thermal store would take longer to heat, but would eventually have the same result. A swimming pool on the other hand would pretty much take an infinite amount of heat from the CHP and so the system could run 24/7.

If it's running 24/7 then it will be generating a lot of electricity, probably more than you could use, and so you could charge the EV and run the Heat Recovery ventilation system (MHRV) with the excess energy.

I'm not sure where biomass boilers came from?

This was my thinking, a normal natural gas CHP boiler on which you can get a fit plus a big demand for heat such as an indoor swimming pool, the fit being enough to potentially pay for the gas to heat the pool and the electricity generated rather than being exported being used to run the ventilation and charge an EV.

The flippancy coming in in that I am sure when they put in place such incentives they certainly didn't have in mind subsidising those who could afford an indoor swimming pool

Baxi Sterling CHP

https://www.renewableenergyhub.co.uk/micro-combined-heat-and-power-micro-chp-information/the-baxi-ecogen-microchp-boiler.html

Martyn1981

michaels wrote: »

So looking at some of the charts gas has regularly been going down to 5GW so in other words once we add 50% more wind than now we will be in to curtailment - perhaps an additional 3GW more if we include the interconnectors as well.

What is the timescale for this level of wind build out?

What impact would that have on the economics of wind once we are into curtailment, would we still have to pay for it under the CFD regime?

Lots to unpack there.

I don't think there's too much concern about 'edge cases', so generating a bit too much, or a lot for a short time, isn't a problem. In fact, if generation is cheap enough, then overcapacity is a perfectly acceptable way to help us meet the intermittency problems of RE. Also, economically, and this is an overly simplified example, but let's say wind was half the cost of nuclear, but we needed to generate twice as much from wind to give us the predictability of nuclear, then generating twice as much and wasting half, would still break even.

From there, of course, as prices fall lower, and for longer, this creates a natural stimulus for industries that will make use of the cheap leccy, such as storage, or even intermittent production of goods.

Next, are we 5GW's away from a problem, well, yes and no. As you point out we've seen gas drop to 5GW and at the same time coal at zero, but there's also about 2GW of leccy from France (which we buy coz it's so damn cheap) and 1-2GW of biomass. Both of those will need to go too.

Looking at the even bigger picture, we have the UK nuclear fleet closing between 2022 and 2030, which can generate about 8GW, but currently at 5GW, with only 3GW of replacement approved and contracted so far, so that's another 2GW.

And also forward looking, is the switch to BEV's, which (just cars) adds about 10% to annual demand, but can be expected to mostly run at night, so a possible increase of ~10GW's during the low demand period when oversupply will first become an issue.

So, my gut feeling, is that as wind starts to become a problem, perhaps in 10yrs, or 5yrs for short periods, loads of other factors will also kick in, and importantly, there is no wall, or time point, expect solutions and complimentary demand increase to simply roll out in co-ordination, mostly balanced through economics (cheap leccy).

Regarding CFD's, I assume that the guaranteed price also means a guaranteed purchase, so again 'simply' yes we would have to buy it, or pay for curtailment, but in 10yrs, the oldest and most expensive CFD's will be ending, and this years auction (for 2024/25 delivery) are expecting prices close to the average wholesale price, so whilst there is a commitment there, the cost/impact of such policies will lessen.

just to be clear, in case anyone wants to pick holes in what I've said - there is so much happening, all around the same time, coupled with falling storage costs, that it's really guesswork. I hope my guesses are reasonable, but treat me gently, like you, I don't know what's on the way, but it should be fun.

zeupater

michaels wrote: »

This was my thinking, a normal natural gas CHP boiler on which you can get a fit plus a big demand for heat such as an indoor swimming pool, the fit being enough to potentially pay for the gas to heat the pool and the electricity generated rather than being exported being used to run the ventilation and charge an EV.

The flippancy coming in in that I am sure when they put in place such incentives they certainly didn't have in mind subsidising those who could afford an indoor swimming pool

Baxi Sterling CHP

https://www.renewableenergyhub.co.uk/micro-combined-heat-and-power-micro-chp-information/the-baxi-ecogen-microchp-boiler.html

Hi

I'm pretty sure that the scheme you refer to is limited to 2kW max systems which would severely hinder the ability to subsidise the installation of a swimming pool to act as a heat-dump in the first place ....

HTH
Z