Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

Martyn1981

"I get knocked down, but I get up again."

Possible return of the Swansea tidal lagoon, this time with added floating PV, and PPA's, and critically ...... no subsidy? Keep those fingers crossed.

Swansea tidal lagoon plan revived – without government funding

GreatApe

It is wrong to think of 'countries' exporting or importing electricity. It is one particular spot in a country doing the importing or exporting. What this means in practice is that you can have spot excesses and shortages. For example you might have an excess of electric in north Germany so north Germany exports power to its neighbors while at the same time south Germany has a deficit so imports nuke/fossil from its neighbors.

ed110220 wrote: »

I find it interesting that flows through the three interconnectors with mainland Europe are quite often in different directions which seems counter-intuitive. Eg right at the moment we are importing from France and exporting to the Netherlands. Does this suggest that the transmission infrastructure between France, Belgium and the Netherlands isn't coping, and so flows are going the long way round via Britain?

It suggests that there is limited interconnection between those countries and more would be useful

There is also limited connection within countries themselves. So you have cases when for example France both exports and imports from Germany at the same time. One region of France exporting and another region importing. Or the other way around, like northern Germany exporting wind to its neighbors while southern Germany imports fossil and nuke from its neighbors

What most do not realize is that the national grids of nations are closer to island grids. So in the UK there are 14 DNOs and with some interconnection between them.

Another problem is for instance you cant just build interconnectors without planning for long distance power transfers within nations. For example in the summer France could technically export another 15GW of nulcear but that does not mean the UK could just add 15GW of inter connectors to northern France and bobs your uncle. If the UK wanted to import 15GW of green nuclear from France not only would we need to build 15GW of interconenctors to northern France but France would also need to build internal infrastructure to be able to transfer power from the east/west/south to northern France.

Overall what needs to happen is because wind is so low density and dispersed most nations are going to have to upgrade their internal grids and build out more interconnection.

Good news is uk is adding a lot of interconnectors over the next 5 years. One already just started up and the eurotunnel one is also meant to be up and running this year

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

You might be right. I suppose if we can get a good deal on the leccy coming in, then we'll buy it based on spot prices, and at the same time, if another country likes the look of our sell price, they may buy off us, so as you suggest, perhaps the inter-country links are running at max, so another route is found.

Certainly shows, or suggests what might be possible if enough interconnectors between countries, and across countries are built - an 'ickle' connector from Spain to N. African PV, making it's way to the UK via internal grids and the French/UK connectors, perhaps?

Not at all likely. Maybe a small amount but nothing significant

The idea of importing African solar to NW Europe wont work because the cost of the lines would be excessive and the political risk too high.

You dont just need a link from Spain to Africa you need to upgrade all the way along Spain then France then uk. If you wanted to import 20GWp of african solar all the way to the uk not only do you need 20GW of interconnector between spain and africa but 20GW between spain and France and 20GW between France and UK and you need the internal network of spain and France to be able to do a net 20GW north and you also need the internal network of the uk to be able to absorb 20GW from south england and distribute that to the rUK. In the same way germany is having issues transporting wind south you will have much bigger problems transporting solar north over much longer distances and a tech that operates at lower CFs too

Instead what is needed is as high as possible CF offshore wind.
If the new turbines can get the claimed 60% CF then grid issues are much much less and you can go heavy wind without having to do mass grid upgrades and interconnectors.

mmmmikey

....on the theme of grids, but digressing slightly if I may.


If I take my laptop with me when I visit my brother in th US I use the same mains adaptor which doesn't care that it's a different voltage and frequency. Most of my other electronic devices could presumably use similar power supplies. My night storage heaters and immersion heaters aren't bothered if things go up or down a bit. I guess the fridge, washing-machine and microwave might complain, though.


My point is, as a domestic user with the right loads I could easily cope with a grid that worked within much slacker frequency tolerances and I'm guessing this would make the whole load-balancing thing (when the sun shines and wind blows etc.) much easier and cheaper, as well as reducing the complexity of grid interconnection.



Is this something that is on the agenda anywhere, or am I just being daft?

GreatApe

mmmmikey wrote: »

....on the theme of grids, but digressing slightly if I may.

If I take my laptop with me when I visit my brother in th US I use the same mains adaptor which doesn't care that it's a different voltage and frequency. Most of my other electronic devices could presumably use similar power supplies. My night storage heaters and immersion heaters aren't bothered if things go up or down a bit. I guess the fridge, washing-machine and microwave might complain, though.

My point is, as a domestic user with the right loads I could easily cope with a grid that worked within much slacker frequency tolerances and I'm guessing this would make the whole load-balancing thing (when the sun shines and wind blows etc.) much easier and cheaper, as well as reducing the complexity of grid interconnection.

Is this something that is on the agenda anywhere, or am I just being daft?

Grid frequency is the same nationally it does not vary outlet to outlet

Voltage varies location to location so much so that most electrical items are designed to work a good range either side of the nominal 230 volts AC

Demand side variation is perhaps possible on refrigeration and heating. Either way it does not solve anything major. If EVs happen they will be the big variable load and EVs solve a lot of problems for 'free'

Generally speaking hot countries will do well with PV + Batts (or EVs) and the EU would do well with high CF offshore wind especially if the new generation turbines can get the claimed 60%+ CF

There is also an additional benefit to offshore wind in that it outputs 1.5x to 2x as much in the winter than in the summer which by luck is good news because if we electrify heating which will have to be done at some stage then winter demand will go up much more so than summer demand.

The solution is now clear, its a heavy wind + CCGT future
There should be no huge problems until at least 60% wind 40% CCGT for the UK and you could more or less expand that to the whole of the EU

With EVs we could perhaps go towards 80% Wind 20% CCGT without major problems

For the UK something like 2-3GW of offshore wind should be installed per year and that would be a deep decarb over a 20 year period.

EVs look like they will work so hopefully they ramp up sooner rather than later

The only real challenge left is seasonal heating

Its just a matter of time now to just keep installing 2-3GW of offshore wind per year

The only small but non zero risk is if the EU tries to pull 300-400GWp of wind will it impact weather/wind patterns negatively leading to non desirable outcomes? The chance of that is very low close to zero so i am not too worried about it

pile-o-stone

GreatApe wrote: »

The only small but non zero risk is if the EU tries to pull 300-400GWp of wind will it impact weather/wind patterns negatively leading to non desirable outcomes? The chance of that is very low close to zero so i am not too worried about it

If these guys are right, then you don't need to worry:

A new study by the British Antarctic Survey, the University of Oxford and the University of Bristol looked at what effect a warmer world would have on winds, specifically across the UK and Northern Europe where wind power is already becoming a major source of energy. In a world that is on average 1.5 degrees Celsius warmer, winds would be stronger and as a result, wind power would make up a significantly larger chunk of the electricity produced in that part of the world.

https://www.treehugger.com/renewable-energy/climate-change-could-bring-stronger-winds-more-wind-power.html

michaels

GreatApe wrote: »

The only small but non zero risk is if the EU tries to pull 300-400GWp of wind will it impact weather/wind patterns negatively leading to non desirable outcomes? The chance of that is very low close to zero so i am not too worried about it

Any data on what proportion of wind energy we would be taking?

I have to admit I had just assumed it was insignificant and orders of magnitude lower than for example the impact of agriculture on things like solar energy take up or indeed even just the extra energy absorption of tarmac roads.

pile-o-stone

Martyn1981 wrote: »

"I get knocked down, but I get up again."

Possible return of the Swansea tidal lagoon, this time with added floating PV, and PPA's, and critically ...... no subsidy? Keep those fingers crossed.

Swansea tidal lagoon plan revived – without government funding

They stole my idea

pile-o-stone wrote: »

I think they don't make enough of the additional infrastructure, such as the walkway/cycleway around the lagoon that will enhance tourism and improve the local area. I'd love somewhere like that to go on a morning run or cycle.

Are they able to utilise the lagoon for watersports such as windsurfing, kayaking, etc. or will the pull through the generators be too dangerous? If they can use the lagoon then that just adds to the tourist attraction, if they can't then perhaps they could fit floating PV like this:

https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/united_utilities_doubles_down_on_floating_pv_with_second_reservoir_install

They would already have the power cabling fitted for the tidal generation, plus the pv panels are more efficient when they are cooler, which they would be if they're surrounded by water.

michaels

michaels wrote: »

Any data on what proportion of wind energy we would be taking?

I have to admit I had just assumed it was insignificant and orders of magnitude lower than for example the impact of agriculture on things like solar energy take up or indeed even just the extra energy absorption of tarmac roads.

Some interesting modelling says meeting us energy demand by on shore wind would result in local heating averaging 0.5c basically as less wind means less local heat removal.

Martyn1981

michaels wrote: »

Some interesting modelling says meeting us energy demand by on shore wind would result in local heating averaging 0.5c basically as less wind means less local heat removal.

It would be interesting to know the impact of PV too. Assuming 20% efficiency now, that suggests 20% of the Sun's energy doesn't hit the ground. Of course that 20% gets released later on as heat (leccy use), but displaces other forms of generation, especially thermal, which create heat (and CO2 emissions) to produce the leccy, which later gives of the same leccy heat.

In an ideal world, I assume diverting African heat (via PV and HVDC) to northern country heat pumps, to displace FF burning for heat is the great balancer.

Edit - Also, and just thinking out loud here, but a decade or so back I was watching a program showing how innovative the Cuban's had to get when Soviet money dried up. They were growing crops on land, and at times, when normally it would be too hot. They used suspended mesh to reduce the solar impact.

Combine that with German, Japanese and Korean success at co-locating high mounted and thinly spaced PV over crops, where both PV and crops managed 80% efficiency, so a combined 160% from the land.

Taking this a step further, perhaps such a combination could be used to bring back poor quality land for crop use, with the long term goal of re-seeding the land with carbon, so it can then support itself. Not for PV or food use, but China is managing to restore land now faster than desertification is claiming it, via decade long replanting and management.

Green land and plants/crops, help to cool land surfaces, whilst naturally storing carbon too.

Every little helps.