Solar: how much you paid (£) how much you have generated (kWh) and date of install.

Martyn1981

cepheus wrote: »

This forum is about Green and ethical Moneysaving. Solar is less than 10% of that and the main interest is making money through subsidies. Wind has even less relevance for domestic use, since it's less economic on a small scale. Let's have some threads on the other environmental issues. Food waste is just one such example and anyone can do it.

I quite agree, wind is less economic on a domestic scale, a point I've been trying to show you for some time. This is actually a great shame, since a small wind turbine would be great to have, but as shown by Windsave (Swindlesave) it just doesn't work on the 'simple' micro-scale, instead requiring a good position, tall mast, and approx 200m of undisturbed air flow from the main direction of wind.

Even then, as discussed with on and off gridders with turbines, it is still more a love affair and art compared to the more simple and predictable PV they are now installing.

Hopefully you may now also be doubting your position regarding large scale wind and PV. [But again, I'll stress, I'm not trying to criticise wind generation, only your claim that it's more cost effective than PV.]

As to the G&E board, I also agree that it's a shame that more issues aren't discussed such as food waste, home egg production etc. But:-
1. You can't force people to post.
2. Constant digs at PV (especially if based on false economic arguments) on this board and others isn't going to help.
3. I for one won't stop posting help and advice to those considering PV.
4. Why get bitter about peoples reasons for installing PV. Support for the industry (here and in other rich nations) has helped move it forward massively in the last 5 to 10 years. These are gains that will be felt worldwide.
5. Domestic PV encourages folk to take an interest in energy generation and conservation. It's also an advertising billboard for renewables and their integration, and normalises renewables for children who can see them as they grow up.
6. The disproportionate number of PV threads is probably just a reflection of how popular the subject is. This may be due to financial reasons, but is that such a bad thing if renewables get rolled out, and people are 'tricked' into taking more interest.

Might I suggest you start a more general thread a bit like the 'Solar in the News' thread. I sometimes post things that aren't really PV related, but think they may be of interest. I for one would enjoy reading such items, though I tend to discuss them on another renewables forum. But don't get disheartened if you don't get a reply, the majority of my PV news postings don't get any response whatsoever, but are largely there just for information purposes. perhaps they get ignored, but I like to think some people read them and just think "ok".

All the best.

Mart.

Martyn1981

cepheus wrote: »

Evidence. What would you trust, what the manufacturer claims a product does or how it has actually performed over a sufficiently long period? The date and installed price together with actual measurements of total kWh produced since installation should be sufficient to calculate all we need to know of their real value to society.

I figured that was the point. So to repeat, the install costs and generation figures I've given are from this board and PVGIS (respectively).

cepheus wrote: »

Perhaps what I missed out were the costs of cleaning and any other maintenance. I think the mean deterioration in output is about 0.5% a year, assuming they are cleaned regularly, but this should be visible in the kWh figures. How long to the inverters last BTW?

Cleaning and maintenance (excluding inverter) should be negligible.

Deterioration is probably correct at about 0.5% pa, but ...... PV costs are front loaded (high capital cost (CAPEX) low operating costs (OPEX) as fuel is free) so if considering an economic argument fully, you might also want to consider the growing value of the PV each year due to inflationary costs on energy. Also the comparatively high maintenance costs of wind.

Inverters depending on make and model, tend to come with 5, 10 or 12 year warranties. The big brands have suggested that they will probably / possibly last 20 years. So at least 10yrs seems fair, with replacement models hopefully lasting longer and longer. Also, extension warranties can be purchased. The SolarEdge 4kW models costing around £500 to £600 can be extended from 12 yrs to 20yrs for approx £200.

I hope you don't mind the number of posts/replies I'm making, but I do find this subject interesting, and genuinely hope to supply you with all the information you may be interested in.

Another point you may be interested in, which Eric mentioned earlier, is that PVGIS may be a little pessimistic. My systems have some shading, but despite this I've had annual generation of between 99% and 108% of gross target (gross - without shading).

Mart.

EricMears

cepheus wrote: »

This forum is about Green and ethical Moneysaving. Solar is less than 10% of that and the main interest is making money through subsidies. Wind has even less relevance for domestic use, since it's less economic on a small scale. Let's have some threads on the other environmental issues. Food waste is just one such example and anyone can do it.

MSE try to be very helpful and suggest that each thread has a title which can indicate to people whether or not they follow it.

If you're not interested in Solar panels then just ignore all the threads which seem to refer to it. If you want a thread on a different environmental issue then anyone can start one. Alas, a major problem with this board is that people veer off the original subject. ISTR that we did indeed have a recent thread on food waste but somebody went and spoilt that by launching into a discussion on solar panels. As a result, nobody has bothered to try and revert that thread to its proper topic.

cepheus

Martyn, you still haven't stated how many kWh you have produced over that time. This is the singularly most important thing people could report regarding solar on this forum.

Waywardmike

If people are interested and it's any use here are mine:

cost - £5600

Total generated to date - 3050.75 kWh (no idea how much exported, don't have an export meter, but we're out all day so probably ~70%))

installed September 2014

Size (area) - 25.75 meters squared (taken from manufactures data sheet x16)

Everything else is in my signature...

Martyn1981

cepheus wrote: »

Martyn, you still haven't stated how many kWh you have produced over that time. This is the singularly most important thing people could report regarding solar on this forum.

No probs, didn't think anyone would be interested in my system as it's far from ideal, and was done in bits, pushing the cost up significantly (much lower returns on capital investment).

My annual target is 4,247kWh but have averaged 4,487kWh so far.

Best year 2014 with 4,603kWh.

What I thought was more important is that my shaded system is matching (or beating) PVGIS forecasts, allowing you to place some confidence on the numbers for south facing systems, or systems SE to SW, operating at about 95% of south.

Mart.

EricMears

Martyn1981 wrote: »

No probs, didn't think anyone would be interested in my system as it's far from ideal, and was done in bits, pushing the cost up significantly (much lower returns on capital investment)

Not so much that people wouldn't be interested; more that Martyn's system was a different size at different dates so anybody trying some fancy mathematical operation would get (even more) meaningless results.

loskie

3.6 kw of Kioto Panels(18) and Aurora inverter installed October 2011. Paid £4160 (I won a 2kw installation and paid the extra!).
So far generated 10881 kw at the higher rate so some where around £4500 earned so far.
Quality of components good, workmanship and integrity of installer less so.
SW Scotland roof faces SSE

cepheus

loskie wrote: »

3.6 kw of Kioto Panels(18) and Aurora inverter installed October 2011. Paid £4160 (I won a 2kw installation and paid the extra!).
So far generated 10881 kw at the higher rate so some where around £4500 earned so far.
Quality of components good, workmanship and integrity of installer less so.
SW Scotland roof faces SSE

Loskie. That's an interesting location to assess these systems. Have you an estimate for what the total cost would be for 3.6kW if you hadn't 'won' the installation part?

Ultimately we need the real cost to a typical consumer, kWh production, and date of installation.

cepheus

jimjames wrote: »

Not a lot. Especially when it doesn't include system size in the details requested so I'll include it on mine.

All my data is publicly visible on my blog

a) £8995
b) 11000 kWh
c) Nov 2011
d) 3kWp

Currently it would probably cost half of that.

So far that's 81p per kWh. For 3.5 years worth of generation.

Extrapolate up to 25 years and it comes out at 11p per kWh so for a current installation that would be 5.5p per kWh.

Is that viable?

JimJames: Thanks for this, as far as I can see you are the only person who has been able to submit clear figures which can be used in a straightforward calculation.

The theoretical rated output is irrelevant, it's the cost and actual output over time which is important, although I suggested the area is included so we get an idea of the size.