David Cameron takes hit as France and Germany agree closer EU ties

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Graham_Devon wrote: »

It's a blow for Cameron's plans.
.

This is of very little relevance to Cameron's plans.

What they are discussing is for the EuroZone, not the wider EU, and is perfectly sensible within the context of a single currency.

Generali

Can someone explain why this is a blow to the UK Government's plans please? Preferably someone who isn't an idiot.

purch

It is a difficult subject for most of us to get our heads around, as we look at the whole idea of Europe as Brits from the outside, rather than as Europeans from the inside.

For the Eurozone to work properly there HAS to be further integration, and the travails for the last few years have certainly convinced the people who matter that they need to get off their fat a&ses and get some reform underway or the whole "project" is at risk.

The UK as a nation needs to properly understand it's place in Europe, and hopefully we can acheive that by having this referendum and a sensibly argued case from both sides.

N1AK

CLAPTON wrote: »

So in your opinion, the leaders of the EU are so vain and shallow , that they will be influenced by 'attitude' rather than the welfare of the people of the EU?

Who would wish to be a member?

They're no more vain or shallow than our own political class; heck, you can't get a lot shallower that a lot of our failed wannabe politicos: UKIP...

Cameron is talking tough because it appeals to a certain demographic in the UK, if he talks too tough and it comes across as Britain demanding other EU countries do our bidding then their are demographics in those other countries who will be opposed to allowing one nation to bully its way to changes.

Clearly a more mature and collaborative approach is more likely to get real and useful reform, but given general inability of the more raving euro-sceptics to do anything mature or collaborative they can't comprehend that.

.string.

I am very much in favour of a negotiation collecting friends rather than enemies (a motherhood statement if ever there was one) so I've been pleased to note that there is some of the "better for Europe" stance creeping into the language rather than sticking to the "better for the UK". But for all that the Referendum with it's potential for Britain leaving is a useful tool on those discussions.

On the point of the EU being different from the EURO Zone; they are separate groupings yes, but they are linked by the EU Commission (which we all pay for whether were in the Eurozone or not). That includes all manner of activities from fishing to foreign policy in which EuroZone counties have their issues they want dealt with and where the UK has a vote to agree or disagree and sometimes to veto. There is also the administration of the Eurozone itself which the EU Commission manages. I remember the UK agreeing that could be done when it was set up (a temporary acquiescence I recall). So there is something in the negotiation mix there.

Somehow I don't think the Eurozone would like to set up a completely new secretariat.

So I do think that there are cards on both sides of the table.

Thrugelmir

Generali wrote: »

Can someone explain why this is a blow to the UK Government's plans please? Preferably someone who isn't an idiot.

Much of what Cameron wishes to change. Goes against the whole concept on which the EU was founded. The French and German have always had clear objectives in this regard. As they are reading from a different book. So while there may be minor concessions. Wholesale change is unthinkable. The timing of the announcement couldn't have been better.

Thrugelmir

BobQ wrote: »

Unfortunately, Cameron not only wants to change the EU but he wants everyone to know how successful he was in doing it. This attitude is simply annoys the other leaders. A more collaborative approach would work better.

I suspect viewpoints are deeply entrenched.

N1AK

.string. wrote: »

But for all that the Referendum with it's potential for Britain leaving is a useful tool on those discussions

I'm not sure it is. It's so public, and been handled so badly, that so far is has appeared as us threatening to cut our nose off if the EU doesn't do exactly what we want.

It means the focus of the renegotiation is going to be on getting the 'right' referendum result rather than the best long term changes for both parties. Finally, the result of any referendum is likely to have very little to do with the actual manifest results of the renegotiation and much more to do with how it is sold, and how well it is sold by both sides of the debate.

Cameron could get a good deal, and the more rabid euro-sceptics will still incessantly attack it as a terrible failure.

Generali

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Much of what Cameron wishes to change. Goes against the whole concept on which the EU was founded. The French and German have always had clear objectives in this regard. As they are reading from a different book. So while there may be minor concessions. Wholesale change is unthinkable. The timing of the announcement couldn't have been better.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this announcement about the Eurozone, i.e. specifically not Britain?

If anything it's quite helpful to DC if he wants to get Euroskeptics on side: the Tories were basically always against the Euro (Lawson excepted). This vindicates their position in many ways.

Graham_Devon

Generali wrote: »

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this announcement about the Eurozone, i.e. specifically not Britain?

If anything it's quite helpful to DC if he wants to get Euroskeptics on side: the Tories were basically always against the Euro (Lawson excepted). This vindicates their position in many ways.

That's the point - he doesn't. He very clearly wants us in the EU. He very clearly wants the referendum result to state we wish to stay in the EU.