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Lcp pcn
omegbe
Posts: 1 Newbie
Please advice - I appealed the PCN from LCP using the template from this Forum and got a rejection letter from them, see below, what next please.
LCP Parking Services Limited, PO Box 45694, London, SW10 1AW. T: 020 3318 0845
Registered No.: 2999319. Registered Office Address: Willoughby House, 2 Broad Street, Stamford, Lincs, PE19 1PB
LCP Parking Services Ltd
PO Box 45694
London
SW10 1AW
Contact Line: 020 3318 0845
21 April 2015
WITHOUT PREJUDICE
Dear Sir
Thank you for your correspondence regarding Notice To Keeper .. against your vehicle registration mark xxxxxxx.
a) The charge is issued in respect of a contractual fee for breaching our terms and conditions in the car park known as Harlesden Plaza. By remaining in the car park for 1 hour 26 minutes 24 seconds, you/the Driver of your vehicle agreed to pay this sum if you failed to comply with the clearly advertised Terms and Conditions.
The 1 hour 26 minutes was more than ample time for you/the driver to consider our offer and decide whether or not you intended to comply with the Terms and Conditions, and by the same measure, 1 hour 26 minutes is more than sufficient time to read the numerous signs and notices we have dotted throughout and at the entrances to the car park.
Our estimate of loss is a sum which has arisen and flowed directly from the issuance of this charge and is a genuine pre-estimate of loss. Accordingly, our breakdown is as follows:
ITEM
COST
DESCRIPTION
DVLA Lookup
£2.50
Kadoe enquiry.
Postage and Consumables
£1.41
Postage, printing, and back-office cost per PCN.
Labour costs
£105.00
3 man hours labour cost for processing THIS notice.
Non-payment on the date of event
£3.20
Allowing for the 10 minutes grace period, the tariff is £1.20 for half an hour and £2 for one hour.
Total:
£112.11
To quote Marina Kapour, the POPLA Assessor who ‘refused’ the appellant’s appeal against the operator, CP Plus: “A pre-estimate of loss need not reflect which is actually caused by the breach, but must be a genuine attempt to estimate the loss which could be caused.”
LCP Parking Services Limited, PO Box 45694, London, SW10 1AW. T: 020 3318 0845
Registered No.: 2999319. Registered Office Address: Willoughby House, 2 Broad Street, Stamford, Lincs, PE19 1PB
To also quote Christopher Adamson, the POPLA Assessor ‘refused’ the appellant’s appeal against LCP Parking Services Ltd: “The parking charge must be an estimate of likely losses flowing from the alleged breach in order to be enforceable. Where there is an initial loss which may be caused by the presence of an appellant’s vehicle in breach of the conditions (e.g. loss of revenue from failure to purchase a Pay & Display ticket) this loss will be recoverable. Provided an initial loss can be demonstrated, any consequential losses incurred in pursuing that initial loss, such as issuing the parking charge notice and staff costs involved in responding to subsequent representations, may also be included in the any pre-estimate of loss. In certain situations, such as where the breach involves a failure to pay a tariff, this initial loss will be obvious. Where it is not obvious, it is for the Operator to demonstrate this initial loss when providing its pre-estimate of loss. This initial loss is fundamental to the charge and, without it, costs incurred by issuing the parking charge notice cannot be said to have been caused by the Appellant’s breach. The Operator would have been in the same position had the parking charge notice not been issued.
The Operator detailed its likely losses following issue of a parking charge notice. These heads of loss include an initial loss of the parking fee which the Appellant did not pay, and other losses consequential to this initial loss.
The Operator is not required to show that this is the loss which was actually caused by the breach, but that it was a genuine pre-estimate of the loss which could be caused and so is enforceable against the Appellant who agreed to the charge by parking.”
And more recently, Amy Riley, the POPLA Assessor also ‘refused’ the appellant’s appeal against LCP Parking Services Ltd, stating the same points as Christopher Adamson but adding “Taking together all of the evidence before me, I am satisfied on this occasion that the charge represents a genuine pre-estimate of loss.”
The charge is issued because you/the driver breached the Terms and Conditions as advertised at the car park. LCP provide a parking space for users that have a need to park and are willing to comply with the Terms and Conditions of the facility, the Charge is therefore not punitive nor unfair and was accepted by the you/ the driver of your vehicle.
b) Please refer to the enclosures with copies and images of our numerous signs throughout and at the entrances to the car park, we enclose a signage plan for ease of reference. All of our signs at the car park entrances are set out in accordance with Appendix B of the AOS CoP and in terms of clarity and scale of text and were all approved by our BPA audit held on site on the 10 March 2014, and again on 24 February 2015.
Our ANPR sign which is situated at BOTH entrances to Harlesden Plaza car park, it clearly states the car park is private property, and that a PCN will be issued for not having paid and registered your vehicles registration at the payment machine (point 1).
The 24 hour Pay & Display tariff boards, of which there are 3 in the car park also states a PCN will be issued for non-payment in lieu of parking time (point 3).
The Terms & Conditions are also on display throughout the car park.
The signage plan shows you where our signs are placed around the car park.
Pictures of the entry/exit from/to Tavistock Road clearly showing the BPA endorsed Car Park entrance signs: the ANPR camera signs (‘A’ on signage plan), the ‘Number Plate Controlled Car Park’ sign (‘F’ on signage plan), and the ‘Pay and Display 24 hour charges apply Private Land’ sign (‘C’ on signage plan). Also showing in the picture is the Tariff boards and payment machines (‘D’ on signage plan). You would have driven past the signs, Tariff board and payment machines upon entering indicating this is a Pay & Display car park.
All of our signs at the car park entrances are set out in accordance with Appendix B of the AOS CoP and in terms of clarity and scale of text and were all approved by our BPA audit held on site on 24 February 2015.
As per our advertised terms and conditions, 7(a), at Harlesden Plaza car park which is Private Property, any length of stay is payable, whether you remain in the car or not.
LCP Parking Services Limited, PO Box 45694, London, SW10 1AW. T: 020 3318 0845
Registered No.: 2999319. Registered Office Address: Willoughby House, 2 Broad Street, Stamford, Lincs, PE19 1PB
Also as per our advertised signs and terms and conditions, 7(b) and 7(c), at the car park, we manage the car park by number plate recognition camera, (the photos, dated and time taken noted accordingly, were on the Parking Charge Notice) which is correlated to payments made at the pay stations, as such we have not had CEO's in attendance at this site since October 2010.
c) LCP are the Leaseholders of the car park, this can be verified with the Land Registry using our title number NGL820674 – we thus have ”Locus Standi” to form contracts with drivers making use of our facilities.
d) The Notice To Keeper is compliant. The relevant information is clearly stated on the Notice To Keeper, which was posted within the time frame as per the BPA Code of Practice fully complies with the PoFA 2012.Schedule 4. Section 56, Point 7(2).
Our current Notice To Keeper was drafted by BP Collins LLP to ensure full compliance with the Act.
e) When a driver parks on private land, and/or a privately owned car park, they are deemed to have accepted the parking terms and conditions and have entered into a contract with the landowner. The signs displayed in the car park setting out the terms and conditions for using the car park are the terms of the contract.
1. The DVLA have confirmed you are the registered keeper of the vehicle, if you were not the driver, please let us have the driver’s name and address and we will ensure that this Notice is transferred to the relevant party.
Please be advised that the regulations surrounding Keeper Liability have recently changed. The ‘Protection of Freedoms Act 2012’ came into force on 1 October 2012. Schedule 4 of the act sets out changes in legislation in England and Wales regarding parking on private land and the rights and obligations of drivers and vehicle keepers, as well as the provision for a new independent appeals process.
To quote from the 'Protection of Freedoms Act 2012' Schedule 4:
4.(1) The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.
(2) The right under this paragraph applies only if—
(a) the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met; and
(b) the vehicle was not a stolen vehicle at the beginning of the period of parking to which the unpaid parking charges relate.
5.(1) The first condition is that the creditor—
(a) has the right to enforce against the driver of the vehicle the requirement to pay the unpaid parking charges; but
(b) is unable to take steps to enforce that requirement against the driver because the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver.
Full details of the new legislation can be found at... alternatively fact sheets can be found on the Department of Transport and the Home Office websites.
Our records indicate that no payment was made by you/the driver around the time your vehicle was in the car park at any one of the 4 machines, or by using the mobile phone payment system Dash, which is the mobile phone payment system.
2. Please refer to ‘a)’ above.
3. Please refer to ‘e)’ above.
The £50 early payment discount period has been extended to 5 May 2015, after this date it will revert to the full £100, in accordance with our Code of Practice. If payment is not made this will escalate and may eventually have additional administration charges levied. Failure to pay may lead to civil legal action being taken to recover the outstanding charge (together with any court fees and interest that may be incurred). Kindly do not ignore this letter.
LCP Parking Services Limited, PO Box 45694, London, SW10 1AW. T: 020 3318 0845
Registered No.: 2999319. Registered Office Address: Willoughby House, 2 Broad Street, Stamford, Lincs, PE19 1PB
You may pay by one of the following methods:
ONLINE at:
By calling: 0845 680 6105
By posting: a crossed cheque or postal order made payable to LCP Parking Services Ltd, with the PCN number written on the reverse, to the following address: PO Box Number 45694, London, SW10 1AW
However, in the meantime, we would like to invite you to either resubmit to LCP an appeal specific to THIS Parking Charge Notice for consideration, clarifying why you were parked in our facility for over 1 hour 26 minutes without making payment at any of the 4 machines or using Dash Park, or settle this charge at the reduced rate.
Should you wish to contest this Notice further, we have attached the POPLA form and completed the Verification Number on your behalf. Please note that if you opt for independent arbitration, the ability to pay the parking charge at the discounted rate will no longer be possible. Should POPLA's decision not go in your favour, you will be required to pay the full amount of £100. Full details of the Parking On Private Land Appeals service can be found at Your verification code, which you will need to appeal to POPLA.
Yours faithfully,
Appeals
LCP Parking Services Ltd
LCP Parking Services Limited, PO Box 45694, London, SW10 1AW. T: 020 3318 0845
Registered No.: 2999319. Registered Office Address: Willoughby House, 2 Broad Street, Stamford, Lincs, PE19 1PB
LCP Parking Services Ltd
PO Box 45694
London
SW10 1AW
Contact Line: 020 3318 0845
21 April 2015
WITHOUT PREJUDICE
Dear Sir
Thank you for your correspondence regarding Notice To Keeper .. against your vehicle registration mark xxxxxxx.
a) The charge is issued in respect of a contractual fee for breaching our terms and conditions in the car park known as Harlesden Plaza. By remaining in the car park for 1 hour 26 minutes 24 seconds, you/the Driver of your vehicle agreed to pay this sum if you failed to comply with the clearly advertised Terms and Conditions.
The 1 hour 26 minutes was more than ample time for you/the driver to consider our offer and decide whether or not you intended to comply with the Terms and Conditions, and by the same measure, 1 hour 26 minutes is more than sufficient time to read the numerous signs and notices we have dotted throughout and at the entrances to the car park.
Our estimate of loss is a sum which has arisen and flowed directly from the issuance of this charge and is a genuine pre-estimate of loss. Accordingly, our breakdown is as follows:
ITEM
COST
DESCRIPTION
DVLA Lookup
£2.50
Kadoe enquiry.
Postage and Consumables
£1.41
Postage, printing, and back-office cost per PCN.
Labour costs
£105.00
3 man hours labour cost for processing THIS notice.
Non-payment on the date of event
£3.20
Allowing for the 10 minutes grace period, the tariff is £1.20 for half an hour and £2 for one hour.
Total:
£112.11
To quote Marina Kapour, the POPLA Assessor who ‘refused’ the appellant’s appeal against the operator, CP Plus: “A pre-estimate of loss need not reflect which is actually caused by the breach, but must be a genuine attempt to estimate the loss which could be caused.”
LCP Parking Services Limited, PO Box 45694, London, SW10 1AW. T: 020 3318 0845
Registered No.: 2999319. Registered Office Address: Willoughby House, 2 Broad Street, Stamford, Lincs, PE19 1PB
To also quote Christopher Adamson, the POPLA Assessor ‘refused’ the appellant’s appeal against LCP Parking Services Ltd: “The parking charge must be an estimate of likely losses flowing from the alleged breach in order to be enforceable. Where there is an initial loss which may be caused by the presence of an appellant’s vehicle in breach of the conditions (e.g. loss of revenue from failure to purchase a Pay & Display ticket) this loss will be recoverable. Provided an initial loss can be demonstrated, any consequential losses incurred in pursuing that initial loss, such as issuing the parking charge notice and staff costs involved in responding to subsequent representations, may also be included in the any pre-estimate of loss. In certain situations, such as where the breach involves a failure to pay a tariff, this initial loss will be obvious. Where it is not obvious, it is for the Operator to demonstrate this initial loss when providing its pre-estimate of loss. This initial loss is fundamental to the charge and, without it, costs incurred by issuing the parking charge notice cannot be said to have been caused by the Appellant’s breach. The Operator would have been in the same position had the parking charge notice not been issued.
The Operator detailed its likely losses following issue of a parking charge notice. These heads of loss include an initial loss of the parking fee which the Appellant did not pay, and other losses consequential to this initial loss.
The Operator is not required to show that this is the loss which was actually caused by the breach, but that it was a genuine pre-estimate of the loss which could be caused and so is enforceable against the Appellant who agreed to the charge by parking.”
And more recently, Amy Riley, the POPLA Assessor also ‘refused’ the appellant’s appeal against LCP Parking Services Ltd, stating the same points as Christopher Adamson but adding “Taking together all of the evidence before me, I am satisfied on this occasion that the charge represents a genuine pre-estimate of loss.”
The charge is issued because you/the driver breached the Terms and Conditions as advertised at the car park. LCP provide a parking space for users that have a need to park and are willing to comply with the Terms and Conditions of the facility, the Charge is therefore not punitive nor unfair and was accepted by the you/ the driver of your vehicle.
b) Please refer to the enclosures with copies and images of our numerous signs throughout and at the entrances to the car park, we enclose a signage plan for ease of reference. All of our signs at the car park entrances are set out in accordance with Appendix B of the AOS CoP and in terms of clarity and scale of text and were all approved by our BPA audit held on site on the 10 March 2014, and again on 24 February 2015.
Our ANPR sign which is situated at BOTH entrances to Harlesden Plaza car park, it clearly states the car park is private property, and that a PCN will be issued for not having paid and registered your vehicles registration at the payment machine (point 1).
The 24 hour Pay & Display tariff boards, of which there are 3 in the car park also states a PCN will be issued for non-payment in lieu of parking time (point 3).
The Terms & Conditions are also on display throughout the car park.
The signage plan shows you where our signs are placed around the car park.
Pictures of the entry/exit from/to Tavistock Road clearly showing the BPA endorsed Car Park entrance signs: the ANPR camera signs (‘A’ on signage plan), the ‘Number Plate Controlled Car Park’ sign (‘F’ on signage plan), and the ‘Pay and Display 24 hour charges apply Private Land’ sign (‘C’ on signage plan). Also showing in the picture is the Tariff boards and payment machines (‘D’ on signage plan). You would have driven past the signs, Tariff board and payment machines upon entering indicating this is a Pay & Display car park.
All of our signs at the car park entrances are set out in accordance with Appendix B of the AOS CoP and in terms of clarity and scale of text and were all approved by our BPA audit held on site on 24 February 2015.
As per our advertised terms and conditions, 7(a), at Harlesden Plaza car park which is Private Property, any length of stay is payable, whether you remain in the car or not.
LCP Parking Services Limited, PO Box 45694, London, SW10 1AW. T: 020 3318 0845
Registered No.: 2999319. Registered Office Address: Willoughby House, 2 Broad Street, Stamford, Lincs, PE19 1PB
Also as per our advertised signs and terms and conditions, 7(b) and 7(c), at the car park, we manage the car park by number plate recognition camera, (the photos, dated and time taken noted accordingly, were on the Parking Charge Notice) which is correlated to payments made at the pay stations, as such we have not had CEO's in attendance at this site since October 2010.
c) LCP are the Leaseholders of the car park, this can be verified with the Land Registry using our title number NGL820674 – we thus have ”Locus Standi” to form contracts with drivers making use of our facilities.
d) The Notice To Keeper is compliant. The relevant information is clearly stated on the Notice To Keeper, which was posted within the time frame as per the BPA Code of Practice fully complies with the PoFA 2012.Schedule 4. Section 56, Point 7(2).
Our current Notice To Keeper was drafted by BP Collins LLP to ensure full compliance with the Act.
e) When a driver parks on private land, and/or a privately owned car park, they are deemed to have accepted the parking terms and conditions and have entered into a contract with the landowner. The signs displayed in the car park setting out the terms and conditions for using the car park are the terms of the contract.
1. The DVLA have confirmed you are the registered keeper of the vehicle, if you were not the driver, please let us have the driver’s name and address and we will ensure that this Notice is transferred to the relevant party.
Please be advised that the regulations surrounding Keeper Liability have recently changed. The ‘Protection of Freedoms Act 2012’ came into force on 1 October 2012. Schedule 4 of the act sets out changes in legislation in England and Wales regarding parking on private land and the rights and obligations of drivers and vehicle keepers, as well as the provision for a new independent appeals process.
To quote from the 'Protection of Freedoms Act 2012' Schedule 4:
4.(1) The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.
(2) The right under this paragraph applies only if—
(a) the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met; and
(b) the vehicle was not a stolen vehicle at the beginning of the period of parking to which the unpaid parking charges relate.
5.(1) The first condition is that the creditor—
(a) has the right to enforce against the driver of the vehicle the requirement to pay the unpaid parking charges; but
(b) is unable to take steps to enforce that requirement against the driver because the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver.
Full details of the new legislation can be found at... alternatively fact sheets can be found on the Department of Transport and the Home Office websites.
Our records indicate that no payment was made by you/the driver around the time your vehicle was in the car park at any one of the 4 machines, or by using the mobile phone payment system Dash, which is the mobile phone payment system.
2. Please refer to ‘a)’ above.
3. Please refer to ‘e)’ above.
The £50 early payment discount period has been extended to 5 May 2015, after this date it will revert to the full £100, in accordance with our Code of Practice. If payment is not made this will escalate and may eventually have additional administration charges levied. Failure to pay may lead to civil legal action being taken to recover the outstanding charge (together with any court fees and interest that may be incurred). Kindly do not ignore this letter.
LCP Parking Services Limited, PO Box 45694, London, SW10 1AW. T: 020 3318 0845
Registered No.: 2999319. Registered Office Address: Willoughby House, 2 Broad Street, Stamford, Lincs, PE19 1PB
You may pay by one of the following methods:
ONLINE at:
By calling: 0845 680 6105
By posting: a crossed cheque or postal order made payable to LCP Parking Services Ltd, with the PCN number written on the reverse, to the following address: PO Box Number 45694, London, SW10 1AW
However, in the meantime, we would like to invite you to either resubmit to LCP an appeal specific to THIS Parking Charge Notice for consideration, clarifying why you were parked in our facility for over 1 hour 26 minutes without making payment at any of the 4 machines or using Dash Park, or settle this charge at the reduced rate.
Should you wish to contest this Notice further, we have attached the POPLA form and completed the Verification Number on your behalf. Please note that if you opt for independent arbitration, the ability to pay the parking charge at the discounted rate will no longer be possible. Should POPLA's decision not go in your favour, you will be required to pay the full amount of £100. Full details of the Parking On Private Land Appeals service can be found at Your verification code, which you will need to appeal to POPLA.
Yours faithfully,
Appeals
LCP Parking Services Ltd
0
Comments
-
Two things :
A. Remove the POPLA code from your post
B. Appeal to POPLA using said code and the examples in the Newbies thread."The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis." - Dante Alighieri0 -
Would advise you to edit your post to remove identifying numbers for the PCN and POPLA - the parking companies do trawl the boards.
I see they've invited you to resubmit a more specific appeal but they have issued you with a POPLA code so there's no point entering into any further correspondence with them and you could lose your chance at POPLA if you don't get your appeal to POPLA submitted in time.
So you should now use it if you want to to continue contesting this charge.
Read the sticky NEWBIES thread post #3 for POPLA appeal info and begin drafting your response.
You can also see recent POPLA decisions and successful appeals submitted by others by taking a look at the sticky POPLA Decisions - start at last page and work backwards.
Using the Search the Forum function can also be useful to find posts from other people dealing with the same company and poss even the same location e.g, try LCP Popla to find examples like this one
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/51985080 -
Two things standout in their costs: 3 hours to process "THIS" notice seems a rather long time for an administrative process and its over £30 per hour! Also, the state some of the cost is "back office" which suggests non direct activities/cost which would be incurred anyway and so not a result of the breach.0
-
In addition to neil.net's point above
using Harlesden to search the forum posts (not threads) yields some very useful posts.
LCP have submitted many differing versions of their gpeol justification, all to justify the same £100 charge. Point is it must be a pre-estimate of loss calculated before they set the level of the charge - not constantly edited versions to try to retrospectively justify something that was never a genuine pre-estimate of loss.
So gather references to such differing calculations and poss pm the OP's who won to see if they are willing to share their POPLA number so you could refer to specific evidence pack submissions which differed but were for the same charge at the same location and have since been massaged to try to convince POPLA0 -
And there seems to be a number of them, having tried endless permutations of GPEOL, are now quoting Beavis to justify charges/deterrents/penalties/ (or whatever) from 2, or more, years ago.
Pathetic!Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street0 -
Just wondering: You thought this was a free car park, right?
We did the same at this car park and got a PCN which we are appealing against. On this forum alone quite a few people have made that mistake. It looks like a car park for Tesco and Burger King customer which one expects to be free.
In my case and the case of the nick Hurtlocker they also claim £105 for 3 hours labour.0 -
There is also the v.a.t. aspect. Contractual charges are subject to vat. If the paperwork does not mention it they may be trying to evade it, a criminal offence. Some reading.
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...7925&highlight=
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...7925&highlight=
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...3796&highlight=
Ifyou ask for a vat compliant invoice and they refuse, shop'em.
https://www.gov.uk/government/organi...ng-tax-evasionYou never know how far you can go until you go too far.0
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