Change of use - change back to previous

jimpix12

Hi all,

I am interested in a home that has a medium sized barn as part of the sale, but I am only interested in the main house itself. Currently the barn is being used as a holiday let and the current vendor applied for permission for this in 2002. Prior to this, the barn was used as "ancillary accommodation" - which I believe is the posh way of saying it was an annexe i.e part of the main house in terms of planning. The barn is not attached in any way to the main house, I would say it's about 50ft away at the nearest point.

As I don't need the barn I would want to sell it on the open market as a separate dwelling. However I understand this would need a change of use application again, to revert back to the previous status of residential rather than a holiday let....

I've asked the EA if they think this would be realistic with the planners but - like all EAs - they don't seem to comprehend that people actually might have questions about the property they are demanding a small fortune for. The vendor is old now and isn't any the wiser, sadly.

Does anyone have experience with this here? FWIW the main property is Grade II listed but (AFAIK) the barn isn't listed although it might fall under listed curtillage. It isn't in a conservation area. What should I do from here?

Thanks in advance.

Tixy

I am not surprised the EA would not want to express an opinion on the prospect of a change in permission for part of the plot.

You could speak to the local planning department perhaps.

Locally to me there are a couple of instances of properties where they have been refused permission to convert conversion annexes in to separate dwellings.

lincroft1710

This type of conversion often has a planning condition that does not allow the secondary dwelling to be sold separately from the main dwelling. You will have to check with the planners.

AdrianC

You're definitely not going back to ancillary accomodation here. You're taking another big step away from that. Ancillary means nobody can "live" in it, it's just some storage etc space. It now has permission to be used as short-term residential. You want permanent residential permission, creating a new household.

The EA is only the agent on behalf of the vendor - if you've got questions over planning, point them to either your solicitor or the council directly - you might be lucky and they have a pre-planning surgery you can go to, but many require you to pay to submit a pre-planning general enquiry.

Will it be a deal-breaker if the barn can't be sold off separately? If not, then I'd get started on the purchase, and get your solicitor to investigate if there's anything explicitly stopping it, as lincroft says. If there is, then your chances are limited. We looked at a place that had a barn with permission to convert to residential, but only for dependent family members, explicitly not holiday and DEFINITELY not selling off for separate.

jimpix12

Thanks, that's interesting. As part of the approval to turn the barn into a holiday let there is a clause that says:

'The building shall not be occupied by an individual as his or her main residence'

Because it will be against the Development Plan and against the character of the area. Whether this is possible to lift this condition, I suppose I will need to speak to the planners - is it likely?

As an aside it seems odd they've given approval for a small gypsy site just down the road with no mention of this detracting from the character of the area - strange.

It would be a deal breaker if the barn were to not get PP (or stand any sort of reasonable chance) because the house is more than large enough by itself, I don't want to run a holiday let, and the barn would provide much needed funds if sold.

AdrianC

spunko2010 wrote: »

Thanks, that's interesting. As part of the approval to turn the barn into a holiday let there is a clause that says:

'The building shall not be occupied by an individual as his or her main residence'

Because it will be against the Development Plan and against the character of the area. Whether this is possible to lift this condition, I suppose I will need to speak to the planners - is it likely?

You need to do more digging. The development plans done a year or five ago are being/have been very recently re-done. EVERY LA has to provide more properties in their areas, so there's a possibility that they might be up for it. After all, every holiday-to-perm is one less new build. Talk, also, to the parish council. They're the ones responsible for the new plan, and will also have input to any planning application. Their vote on that will carry weight, although it won't necessarily be binding.

As an aside it seems odd they've given approval for a small gypsy site just down the road with no mention of this detracting from the character of the area - strange.

Not necessarily - every council has to provide traveller sites somewhere. And they aren't permanent houses.

jimpix12

Thanks AdrianC. The local council offer a written consultation for £80 or a meeting for a (shocking) £400 per hour. There is no walk-in service sadly. Is it best to approach the local council planners first? For costs reasons I'd go for the written approach. Or would it be better to approach the parish council first?

Do I need to inform the vendor or the EA if I approach either - I assume yes and presumably it would be impolite not to anyway? As you can tell, I am new to this.

Tixy

As its a deal breaker then I would either
1) walk away, or
2) put in an offer to the vendor subject to you being able to get planning permission to sell off the barn as a separate residential dwelling and explain that you wouldn't be able to exchange for several months and only then if you have sucessfully obtained permission in advance (and see if they are prepared to consider it).

As its a deal breaker then I would think you need to actually seek and obtain planning permission first as even with a positive indication from the planning department it won't guarantee success until you actually try. Obviously there would be a cost and timescale to this and the vendor may well accept another offer in the meantime.

Of course if you go to the cost of obtaining planning permission then the vendor may choose to sell off each property separately themselves.

jimpix12

Thanks. Is it commonplace for the planners to state they are open to change of use in a pre-planning letter, only then to change their minds later when a full planning application is made? That sounds decidedly dodgy if that does happen! It would be a straight-forward change of use to residential, although I need to check the utilities and how that would pan out if it were 2x dwellings. But there are no external or indeed internal changes that would need to be made to the barn. So there isn't much wiggle room for the planners surely?

I don't mind taking a risk if the pre-planning goes well and the parish council have no objections or issues. It's not worth, in my opinion, applying for full planning permission unless I own the property as I am doing all the work for the vendor!

Tixy

spunko2010 wrote: »

Is it commonplace for the planners to state they are open to change of use in a pre-planning letter, only then to change their minds later when a full planning application is made?

I don't think I'd risk hundreds of thousands of pounds on it.

I am not sure if it is commonplace but it certainly does sometimes happen. E.g. a nearby neighbour of mine was given positive feedback from a planner in relation to extending a small property in to an connected outbuilding before purchasing the probate property but was ultimately declined at full planning permission and at appeal.

Davesnave

I would guess that this property is in a conservation area, AONB, or similar, where it is common to allow the development of holiday residences, which form an important part of the local economy.

Changing the use to full residential would set a dangerous precedent, as there could be many more properties in the local area, whose owners would like to do just that!

I am aware of the case where someone with a main residence and several holiday lets, which were not then particularly lucrative, destroyed the kitchens and bathrooms in them so as to reduce their council tax liability. They reverted to 'barns.' It was then easier to sell the property.