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The MSE Debate House Prices Manifesto
michaels
Posts: 29,133 Forumite
Even the most partisan of us would probably admit that there is an awful lot in the manifestoes of the party we support that is economically and socially illiterate. I was wondering if we could reach any consensus on a 'sensible' core set of policies that we could all support or at least accept as part of an overall package. It is my thread so I'll start 
Housing
The main problem in the UK is the housing stock is insufficient for the population already and that this housing deficit is getting worse every year.
1)Restrictions on building should be relaxed so that bulding levels can increase to acheive this although care will need to be taken to avoid a house price crash that will damage individuals and banks.
2) Local authorities should be allowed to invest in property to meet the needs of their residents in the most cost effective way rather than just having to purchase private sector rented accomodation they might be allowed to contract new build long lease accomodation or even opurchase existing private housing stock using debt secured against such assets.
Income taxes and in-work benefits
Combine Income Tax, National Insurance and Tax Credits leaving a much simpler set of allowances and bands. Tapering transitional arrangements could be put in place to aviod harming those hit hardest by this change. (I quite like the concept of a bsic cizizens income as it is non-distorting but I realise that puts me into the land of the loons.)
Any system though should avoid penalising work as much as possible - yes a 52% marginal tax rate for high earners deters effort and encourages avoidance behavoiur but so does a 95% marginal effecitve rate for low earners.
Health and Education
We somehome need to better decided the total share of income that goes on these services and how we allocate a limited amount of resource between competing priorities. It would appear that by international standards we spend too little on health adn our outcomes are middlling. The dynamics of the NHS also mean we over-emphasise treatment over prevention.
I would seperate entitlement (free at point of need) to provision (does not need to be state supplied) but this does get so complicated when trying to move from a monolithic system wth numerous cross-subsidies to a mixed providor system. I would not rule out some small use of 'co-payment' and fees for extra services as these can be used to rapidly boost efficiency.
We are currently not looking at shaking up the education system in a manner to deliver increased efficiency (perhaps medium term more online virtual learning may bring savings but for now the main cost remains student to teacher ratios), given this any reduction in expenditure per pupil would appear to imply reducing standards. The negative experience in Wales suggests that while no doubt the better teachers could be left to 'get on with it', outcomes overall are worse without a riobust regime of inspections and testing.
It is unclear whether the massive expansion of higher education makes economic sense for the country so the current pushing the costs of higher education onto the recipients would appear to make sense, hover it would appear to be fairest to do this as a graduate tax....although this does negate any 'market' solution helping to channel students itno choosing the subjects that are most useful to the country as a whole.
Other Govt Dept Spending and Salaries
Given limited funds it would seem we need to both determine what services the govt should provide and how they should be delivered most efficiently. I see no reason to proscribe either public or private provision but a mixture should allow the best of both worlds, again subject to the complexity of contracts issue that besets the NHS.
It seems very clear that for public sector employees their is a trade off between pay and number of staff employed, I don't know how to resolve this but suggest that we should change the pay structure so that pensions become definined contribution (at the rate currently implied under defined benefit) and then allow govt employees flexibility in how much of their total employment bill they get as pension and how much as salasry (subject to the same minimum pension contributions as everyone else). Public service pay should also be opened to local agreement, I know this reduces the powers of collective bargaining but it alos allows rate sto accurately reflect local costs fo living rather than the current situation where in some areas govt jobs are highly sought after and in others agency staff are needed to fill recruitment gaps.
Benefit Spending
I think this is an area that is much improved with availability being much more closely linked to need and incentives more aligned towards self sufficiency and moving off benefits than making it a lifestyle choice. whether benefits should increase with inflation of average income from this point is a tricky question, the later sounds fairer but can we afford it in the short term?
One area that need sorting is the payment of benefits to those who don't need them, including the elderly. Perhaps if benefits like child benefit are folded into tax credits and winter fuel and other alowances into the overall pension then this can be acheived without setting up expensive new beuraucracies?
Constitutional Reform and Europe
First off, we need a constitution. This will help us make sensible decsions on issues like regional devolution, further European integraton etc. IT will make the obsurdity of Scottish MPS voting for English patients to pay increased prescription fees whilst not having any say on such fees for their own constituents entierly transparent. Inter-region transfers should also be assessed to confirm they are fair (Barnett).
The second chamber should also be reformed, perhaps with regional senators with longer terms and staggered elections?
There should be a referendum to confirm the additional powers that have been transferred to Europe over and above what was voted for in the 70s (I think this will be a yes to Europe), the constitution will also require amendment and therefore likely further referenda shoiuld further powers be transferred to Europe.
OK I know this will disappear without a trace but if anyone has any thoughts on whether there are any policies we could all think are sensible I would be interested to hear.
Housing
The main problem in the UK is the housing stock is insufficient for the population already and that this housing deficit is getting worse every year.
1)Restrictions on building should be relaxed so that bulding levels can increase to acheive this although care will need to be taken to avoid a house price crash that will damage individuals and banks.
2) Local authorities should be allowed to invest in property to meet the needs of their residents in the most cost effective way rather than just having to purchase private sector rented accomodation they might be allowed to contract new build long lease accomodation or even opurchase existing private housing stock using debt secured against such assets.
Income taxes and in-work benefits
Combine Income Tax, National Insurance and Tax Credits leaving a much simpler set of allowances and bands. Tapering transitional arrangements could be put in place to aviod harming those hit hardest by this change. (I quite like the concept of a bsic cizizens income as it is non-distorting but I realise that puts me into the land of the loons.)
Any system though should avoid penalising work as much as possible - yes a 52% marginal tax rate for high earners deters effort and encourages avoidance behavoiur but so does a 95% marginal effecitve rate for low earners.
Health and Education
We somehome need to better decided the total share of income that goes on these services and how we allocate a limited amount of resource between competing priorities. It would appear that by international standards we spend too little on health adn our outcomes are middlling. The dynamics of the NHS also mean we over-emphasise treatment over prevention.
I would seperate entitlement (free at point of need) to provision (does not need to be state supplied) but this does get so complicated when trying to move from a monolithic system wth numerous cross-subsidies to a mixed providor system. I would not rule out some small use of 'co-payment' and fees for extra services as these can be used to rapidly boost efficiency.
We are currently not looking at shaking up the education system in a manner to deliver increased efficiency (perhaps medium term more online virtual learning may bring savings but for now the main cost remains student to teacher ratios), given this any reduction in expenditure per pupil would appear to imply reducing standards. The negative experience in Wales suggests that while no doubt the better teachers could be left to 'get on with it', outcomes overall are worse without a riobust regime of inspections and testing.
It is unclear whether the massive expansion of higher education makes economic sense for the country so the current pushing the costs of higher education onto the recipients would appear to make sense, hover it would appear to be fairest to do this as a graduate tax....although this does negate any 'market' solution helping to channel students itno choosing the subjects that are most useful to the country as a whole.
Other Govt Dept Spending and Salaries
Given limited funds it would seem we need to both determine what services the govt should provide and how they should be delivered most efficiently. I see no reason to proscribe either public or private provision but a mixture should allow the best of both worlds, again subject to the complexity of contracts issue that besets the NHS.
It seems very clear that for public sector employees their is a trade off between pay and number of staff employed, I don't know how to resolve this but suggest that we should change the pay structure so that pensions become definined contribution (at the rate currently implied under defined benefit) and then allow govt employees flexibility in how much of their total employment bill they get as pension and how much as salasry (subject to the same minimum pension contributions as everyone else). Public service pay should also be opened to local agreement, I know this reduces the powers of collective bargaining but it alos allows rate sto accurately reflect local costs fo living rather than the current situation where in some areas govt jobs are highly sought after and in others agency staff are needed to fill recruitment gaps.
Benefit Spending
I think this is an area that is much improved with availability being much more closely linked to need and incentives more aligned towards self sufficiency and moving off benefits than making it a lifestyle choice. whether benefits should increase with inflation of average income from this point is a tricky question, the later sounds fairer but can we afford it in the short term?
One area that need sorting is the payment of benefits to those who don't need them, including the elderly. Perhaps if benefits like child benefit are folded into tax credits and winter fuel and other alowances into the overall pension then this can be acheived without setting up expensive new beuraucracies?
Constitutional Reform and Europe
First off, we need a constitution. This will help us make sensible decsions on issues like regional devolution, further European integraton etc. IT will make the obsurdity of Scottish MPS voting for English patients to pay increased prescription fees whilst not having any say on such fees for their own constituents entierly transparent. Inter-region transfers should also be assessed to confirm they are fair (Barnett).
The second chamber should also be reformed, perhaps with regional senators with longer terms and staggered elections?
There should be a referendum to confirm the additional powers that have been transferred to Europe over and above what was voted for in the 70s (I think this will be a yes to Europe), the constitution will also require amendment and therefore likely further referenda shoiuld further powers be transferred to Europe.
OK I know this will disappear without a trace but if anyone has any thoughts on whether there are any policies we could all think are sensible I would be interested to hear.
I think....
0
Comments
-
My tax should go down. My public services should go up. F*** everyone else.
That's my manifesto.0 -
TheBlueHorse wrote: »My tax should go down. My public services should go up. F*** everyone else.
That's my manifesto.
Re: the bold.
Do you have a running order and timetable for this, or is it "uncosted"?
(I think you should give yourself Wednesdays off, call it a rest day)0 -
Housing.
- should be a regional issue, with localised approach to suit
I might be wrong on this, but I'm sensing a particular housing specific need in London/SE (call it spidey sense).
So...in London... you could formalise the conversion of sheds (call them rustic abodes). Since you're unlikely to sleep and cook at the same time isn't there an opportunity here to multiplex kitchens as boudoirs?
London is the creative capital, so get innovative guys!0 -
Even the most partisan of us would probably admit that there is an awful lot in the manifestoes of the party we support that is economically and socially illiterate. I was wondering if we could reach any consensus on a 'sensible' core set of policies that we could all support or at least accept as part of an overall package. It is my thread so I'll start
Housing
The main problem in the UK is the housing stock is insufficient for the population already and that this housing deficit is getting worse every year.
1)Restrictions on building should be relaxed so that bulding levels can increase to acheive this although care will need to be taken to avoid a house price crash that will damage individuals and banks.
2) Local authorities should be allowed to invest in property to meet the needs of their residents in the most cost effective way rather than just having to purchase private sector rented accomodation they might be allowed to contract new build long lease accomodation or even opurchase existing private housing stock using debt secured against such assets.
Income taxes and in-work benefits
Combine Income Tax, National Insurance and Tax Credits leaving a much simpler set of allowances and bands. Tapering transitional arrangements could be put in place to aviod harming those hit hardest by this change. (I quite like the concept of a bsic cizizens income as it is non-distorting but I realise that puts me into the land of the loons.)
Any system though should avoid penalising work as much as possible - yes a 52% marginal tax rate for high earners deters effort and encourages avoidance behavoiur but so does a 95% marginal effecitve rate for low earners.
Health and Education
We somehome need to better decided the total share of income that goes on these services and how we allocate a limited amount of resource between competing priorities. It would appear that by international standards we spend too little on health adn our outcomes are middlling. The dynamics of the NHS also mean we over-emphasise treatment over prevention.
I would seperate entitlement (free at point of need) to provision (does not need to be state supplied) but this does get so complicated when trying to move from a monolithic system wth numerous cross-subsidies to a mixed providor system. I would not rule out some small use of 'co-payment' and fees for extra services as these can be used to rapidly boost efficiency.
We are currently not looking at shaking up the education system in a manner to deliver increased efficiency (perhaps medium term more online virtual learning may bring savings but for now the main cost remains student to teacher ratios), given this any reduction in expenditure per pupil would appear to imply reducing standards. The negative experience in Wales suggests that while no doubt the better teachers could be left to 'get on with it', outcomes overall are worse without a riobust regime of inspections and testing.
It is unclear whether the massive expansion of higher education makes economic sense for the country so the current pushing the costs of higher education onto the recipients would appear to make sense, hover it would appear to be fairest to do this as a graduate tax....although this does negate any 'market' solution helping to channel students itno choosing the subjects that are most useful to the country as a whole.
Other Govt Dept Spending and Salaries
Given limited funds it would seem we need to both determine what services the govt should provide and how they should be delivered most efficiently. I see no reason to proscribe either public or private provision but a mixture should allow the best of both worlds, again subject to the complexity of contracts issue that besets the NHS.
It seems very clear that for public sector employees their is a trade off between pay and number of staff employed, I don't know how to resolve this but suggest that we should change the pay structure so that pensions become definined contribution (at the rate currently implied under defined benefit) and then allow govt employees flexibility in how much of their total employment bill they get as pension and how much as salasry (subject to the same minimum pension contributions as everyone else). Public service pay should also be opened to local agreement, I know this reduces the powers of collective bargaining but it alos allows rate sto accurately reflect local costs fo living rather than the current situation where in some areas govt jobs are highly sought after and in others agency staff are needed to fill recruitment gaps.
Benefit Spending
I think this is an area that is much improved with availability being much more closely linked to need and incentives more aligned towards self sufficiency and moving off benefits than making it a lifestyle choice. whether benefits should increase with inflation of average income from this point is a tricky question, the later sounds fairer but can we afford it in the short term?
One area that need sorting is the payment of benefits to those who don't need them, including the elderly. Perhaps if benefits like child benefit are folded into tax credits and winter fuel and other alowances into the overall pension then this can be acheived without setting up expensive new beuraucracies?
Constitutional Reform and Europe
First off, we need a constitution. This will help us make sensible decsions on issues like regional devolution, further European integraton etc. IT will make the obsurdity of Scottish MPS voting for English patients to pay increased prescription fees whilst not having any say on such fees for their own constituents entierly transparent. Inter-region transfers should also be assessed to confirm they are fair (Barnett).
The second chamber should also be reformed, perhaps with regional senators with longer terms and staggered elections?
There should be a referendum to confirm the additional powers that have been transferred to Europe over and above what was voted for in the 70s (I think this will be a yes to Europe), the constitution will also require amendment and therefore likely further referenda shoiuld further powers be transferred to Europe.
OK I know this will disappear without a trace but if anyone has any thoughts on whether there are any policies we could all think are sensible I would be interested to hear.
too much to answer in one post so I'll comment piecemeal
housing (A)
there are two problems with the UK housing market
-lack of supply
-too much demand
on the supply side we really need more information from builders , large, small and self builders what they see as the obstacles ls to building. Clearly our planning laws and the levies and charges and the 'social' housing requirements are serious issues but useful to ask the people who actually build too.
on the demand side the level of immigration is a substantial issue which shows no sign of deminishing.
Housing (B) social housing
State owned housing ought to be sold off for the best possible price.
There is no logic or morality for the houses to be owned by the state or subsidised by the state.
The idea of 'cost effective' is entirely a political terms and not based in common sense : remember that all PFI projects were the most effective solution at the time, HS2 is cost justified etc etc.
Provision of housing for the poor should be in the private sector with clear parameters that such housing should
-be no better than the 20% ile of ordinary comparable people experience
-obviously reviewed regularly
Jumping to
Constitutional Reform and Europe
Lets bear in mind that unless it's broken don't fix it.
It was often said that the USSR constitution and legal system was the best in the world (as written)
The experience in the USA shows that a written constitution changes law making from a democratically accountable system to a unaccountable judge lead system.
The decisions made by our own judges based our adoption of the human rights act are not encouraging.
There is absolutely no reason why a written constitution would made issue like regional devolution and easier: they are essentially a political decision and not judge lead decision.
Suppose our constitution said we are a 'whole and indivisible nation' : how would that help?
If we want more direct democracy (i.e. more referendum) then we can change the law to specify when such things should happen .
Barnett formula can be changed at a stoke, so can voting fairness if parliament decides: much preferrble than a judge making decision on an out of date constitution.
A written constitution will merely solidify the current concerns and prejudices : live changes and so do our laws: the current system deals with that very well indeed.0 -
Pensions
The triple lock is absurd and effectively, over time, gives pensioners a bigger share of the cake.
Either;
1) Increase by CPI / RPI to protect purchasing power.
2) Increase by average earnings to protect relative living standards.
But not both.0 -
Housing
Yes planning laws need to be reformed so that housing can be built where needed
Social Housing and an adequate supply is essential. LA's should be allowed to borrow to invest in housing stock to meet the needs of the population in their area. The Rents need to be set at a level that covers costs. There is no logic or morality in opposing social housing.
Tax & Benefits
The Income Tax policy of removing as many people as possible from taxation is a good one and should be continued. A benefit cap is essential, as is a streamlining of benefits into as few payments as possible.
Health & Education
Stop meddling. Decrease focus on vocational subjects at too early an age.
Constitutional Mumbo Jumbo
Electorial Reform. PR for our Government, abolish the House of Lords and replace with an upper house formed of lay members voted on a constituency basis similar to the current system, but without direct party affiliations. This will help retain the local representation that will be lost with PR'In nature, there are neither rewards nor punishments - there are Consequences.'0 -
what they need to invent is invisble housing, so the green belt can be built on and still remain green.0
-
TheBlueHorse wrote: »what they need to invent is invisble housing, so the green belt can be built on and still remain green.
Perhaps we should build double story basements under every existing property but have them as seperate dwellings, we could use 75 inch TVs to give the ilusion of windows, pump in some fresh air and use as social housing...for the underclasses
I'll get me coat.I think....0 -
Perhaps we should build double story basements under every existing property but have them as seperate dwellings, we could use 75 inch TVs to give the ilusion of windows, pump in some fresh air and use as social housing...for the underclasses
I'll get me coat.
Permission to run with this idea!
Tax breaks to build these double storey basements.
Then...we get to rent them out to economic migrants so we all get wealthier. I figure I can get maybe 40 to 50 car wash specialists in my basement. (They will have to work shifts to optimise the bed sharing).0 -
Even the most partisan of us would probably admit that there is an awful lot in the manifestoes of the party we support that is economically and socially illiterate. I was wondering if we could reach any consensus on a 'sensible' core set of policies that we could all support or at least accept as part of an overall package. It is my thread so I'll start
Income taxes and in-work benefits
Combine Income Tax, National Insurance and Tax Credits leaving a much simpler set of allowances and bands. Tapering transitional arrangements could be put in place to aviod harming those hit hardest by this change. (I quite like the concept of a bsic cizizens income as it is non-distorting but I realise that puts me into the land of the loons.)
Any system though should avoid penalising work as much as possible - yes a 52% marginal tax rate for high earners deters effort and encourages avoidance behavoiur but so does a 95% marginal effecitve rate for low earners.
income taxes and benefits of all kinds whether work related or not and specifically including housing benefit and the council house subsidy
The basic maths says
- flat rate to everyone, whether they need them or not, does mean that there is no sudden high marginal rates of deductions
-flat rates to everyone is very expensive and there will be considered unfair that rich people are being given 'handouts' (think child allowances )
-subsidising the poorer and not the rich mean high marginal rates of deduction which are major disincentives to work or earn more
there is no way of squaring this circle and no amount of good intentions are any good.
a basis citizens income is a way of avoiding high marginal rates of deduction
the objection is that if set low then it's ineffective and if set high removes the incentive to work at all for many people
the devil is in the detail: there is no solution that will people will be happy with all of the time.
high levels of tax free allowance, to bring the poorer people out of tax simply means higher stealth taxes : maybe good maybe bad, as it depends what the stealth tax will be0
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