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STOP Calling Your Bank on an Expensive 0845 Number!

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  • Ian011
    Ian011 Posts: 2,432 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 27 April 2015 at 10:26PM
    Post sales helplines for retailers, traders and passenger transport companies are governed by Regulation 41 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 originally published by BIS.

    The helplines should use numbers starting 01, 02, 03 or 080.

    Breaches of the regulation should be reported to Trading Standards via the Citizen's Advice national Consumer Helpline on 0345 404 0506.

    The FCA has dithered for several years over producing similar regulation for the financial sector. They eventually held a consultation which closed last month and regulation is expected in the Summer of 2015.

    One important point, Service Charges on calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers have always existed, but haven't been separately declared. Ofcom's measures are about splitting the existing call price and declaring each part, not changing the prices. Some call prices will change up or down by a small amount to fit the new system.
  • If you have an android phone a really useful app I found is WeQ4U. It calls the 0845 numbers etc but does it at the standard rate. It also queues for you so you can hang up and get a call back when someone is free.

    Obviously 0345 number is better if you have it.
  • Ian011
    Ian011 Posts: 2,432 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    If you have an android phone a really useful app I found is WeQ4U. It calls the 0845 numbers etc but does it at the standard rate. It also queues for you so you can hang up and get a call back when someone is free.

    Obviously 0345 number is better if you have it.
    For 084 and 087 numbers, your phone dials an 03 number that belongs to WeQ4U and their system attempts to find an alternative 01, 02, 03 or 080 number that they then call and put you through. At no point is the original 084 or 087 number actually called anywhere in the system.

    With so many businesses and organisations now using 03 numbers, there's rarely a need to use the alternative-number look-up part of the system, but the queueing part may prove useful.
  • oliverbrown
    oliverbrown Posts: 522 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 100 Posts Name Dropper
    Ian011 wrote: »
    Breaches of the regulation should be reported to Trading Standards via the Citizen's Advice national Consumer Helpline on 0345 404 0506.


    I rang the Citizen's Advice national Consumer but they said that they don't deal with complaints of this nature.

    Instead they gave me the number for Business Link, my local trading standards number (which just seemed to divert back to Citizen's Advice national Consumer Helpline) and Ombudsman Services: Communications.

    So I got nowhere.
  • Ian011
    Ian011 Posts: 2,432 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 28 April 2015 at 8:42PM
    Just realised you were talking about a water company.

    You'll need to contact your local office of the Consumer Council for Water.
    They have been aware of this issue for almost a year.
  • Ian011 wrote: »
    You'll need to contact your local office of the Consumer Council for Water.
    They have been aware of this issue for almost a year.


    Thanks, I've just done that now, although if they have already known about it for a year, it may have little additional effect.

    Southern Water told me they are within their rights to use an 0845 number because it is "only charged as a local call". I was not getting anywhere convincing them otherwise.
  • Ian011
    Ian011 Posts: 2,432 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 28 April 2015 at 11:30PM
    0845 numbers haven't been charged as a "local call" from landlines since 2004. There's no such thing as a local rate call from a mobile phone.

    See the last section of this Ofcom page
    http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/telecoms/policy/non-geo-call-services/
    and the page that it links to, the latter being a note issued by CAP in 2005.

    A few minutes spent studying tariff sheets from landline and mobile providers quickly shows that 0845 calls are more expensive and non-inclusive (except for BT whose 0845 rates are currently capped by regulation that will end on 1 July 2015).

    It's amazing that people haven't caught up with changes that happened a decade ago. They had better be paying attention now.

    From 1 July 2015, all users of 084, 087 and 09 numbers are required to declare the Service Charge that they and their telecoms provider benefit from. Ofcom have introduced the new rules because of the sheer amount of misleading pricing quoted for these calls over the last decade.

    Where a user cannot justify the imposition of a Service Charge on callers they must change their number to one that does not impose this additional charge. Ofcom made 03 numbers available for this purpose in 2007. Specifically, matching 034 and 037 numbers are reserved for users of existing 084 and 087 numbers to migrate.

    The changes happening on 1 July 2015 will expose those who haven't been paying attention for a very long time.
  • Ian011 wrote: »
    A few minutes spent studying tariff sheets from landline and mobile providers quickly shows that 0845 calls are more expensive and non-inclusive (except for BT whose 0845 rates are currently capped by regulation that will end on 1 July 2015).


    I thought of that after the call. Three charge 3p for calls to landlines and mobiles, and 35p to 0845. So that destroys the "local rate" argument. I don't fancy ringing SW again but I'll see what CCW say.
  • Ian011
    Ian011 Posts: 2,432 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 30 April 2015 at 9:27PM
    One tip. Don't use the terms 'local rate' or 'national rate' to describe any type of number. These terms just breed confusion.

    With calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers, the calls are 'inclusive' else charged at 'geographic rate'. You pay only your own landline or mobile provider for the call (whether that is per month for a bundle of calls, or per minute for each call, is up to you). The person at the other end receives no financial benefit. The additional call handling and routing costs incurred when an 03 number is employed are paid for by the call recipient.

    With calls to 080 numbers, the calls are 'free' from landlines and (from 1 July 2015) will be free from mobiles. The additional call handling and routing costs incurred when an 080 number is employed are paid for by the call recipient. The caller's provider is also compensated by the called party for the fact that the caller paid nothing for the call. The latter fee will rise on 1 July 2015.

    When you call an 084, 087, 09 or 118 number you pay your landline or mobile provider for connecting and conveying the call and you also pay a fee to the non-geographic number provider. They use this revenue to cover the additional call-handling and routing costs incurred in the use of a non-geographic number. If there is anything left over, the called party may receive a revenue share payment. Often, however, for 084 numbers, that additional revenue is used to discount the called party's bill for other telephony services (such as outgoing calls or lease of switchboard equipment) and so does not necessarily appear as a line on their accounts.

    Whether or not they receive 'cash' from the arrangement, usage of an 084, 087 or 09 number means they receive a subsidy at the expense of callers. From 1 July 2015 this revenue is exposed as the Service Charge and must be separately declared everywhere their number is advertised.

    Those who cannot justify the imposition of a Service Charge on callers must change their number to one that does not impose such a charge. The 03 range of numbers imposes no such additional charges and revenue sharing is not permitted.

    Landline and mobile providers will have to declare their portion of the call cost as their Access Charge. At present this varies according to which provider you use and which number you call. From 1 July 2015, it will no longer be allowed to vary according to which number was called. It will be a fixed fee per tariff.

    It will also become clear that regulation imposed on BT since 2003 made their Access Charge ZERO. This is why BT's retail call prices for 084, 087, 09 and 118 calls have always been lower than all other providers. BT only makes money from call termination on numbers that it hosts. BT makes no money on call origination. BT's retail rates for 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers have varied from all other providers, but this regulation will end on the same date as the other changes that are happening.

    The clarity that comes with Clear Call Rates for Everyone is much needed and long awaited.

    080 - the call is free. The caller's landline or mobile provider's costs are subsidised by the called party. The called party also pays the additional non-geographic call handling and routing costs.

    03 - the caller always pays exactly the same rate as a call to an 01 or 02 number. For most people the call will be inclusive. The called party covers the additional call-handling and routing costs incurred in the use of the non-geographic number. After all, it was their decision to use a non-geographic number. 03 numbers are cost neutral.

    084, 087, 09 - the caller pays an Access Charge to their landline or mobile provider for connecting and conveying the call and a Service Charge which is passed on. The Service Charge paid by the caller subsidises the call handling and routing costs incurred by the called party and usually pays out a revenue share which is used to further fund provision of the service. There are many instances where these subsidies are inappropriate and various regulation in the last 18 months has largely brought this to an end by forcing these services to move to an 03 or 080 number.



    See also
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5219756
  • pmduk
    pmduk Posts: 10,681 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper

    Southern Water told me they are within their rights to use an 0845 number because it is "only charged as a local call". I was not getting anywhere convincing them otherwise.

    Front-line CS staff are usually not allowed to deviate from the official company "line". When told such an obviously inaccurate statement such as you have mentioned, the company's complaints policy is the best way to proceed.
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