Buying a flat - with loft conversion without PP

marklee

Hi everyone,

I'm currently in the process of buying a top floor flat in London, which the current owners added a loft conversion to around 2008. However - it doesn't all seem above board.

From looking at the planning records, the current owners applied for permission a single large dormer (with two windows); this was refused. They then went and applied for planning permission for two smaller dormers, a similar size to each window. This was accepted.

In the end, however, they went ahead and built the original design, with the single large dormer.

From my reading online, they should in general be able to get a Certificate of Lawful Development as the work was completed more than four years ago, and there seems to have been no enforcement action.

However - the planning consent applies a condition that the work "shall be carried out in accordance with the approved plans"; I have read elsewhere online that the 10 year rule applies for breaches of planning conditions.

Given this, does anyone have a view of whether the four-year or ten-year rule applies in this situation?

Obviously we're getting legal advice for this - but it is taking a while with a lot of to-ing and fro-ing between our and the seller's solicitor, and the uncertainty is killing us! Would love any thoughts on whether this is something that is workable or if we should abandon altogether. If this falls through, it will be the second one to do so - my OH is going spare!

Thanks!

anselld

IMHO the 10 year rule applies. Application for CLU would probably fail on the grounds that the use is not lawful and it would simply alert the authority to the planning breach.

marklee

anselld wrote: »

IMHO the 10 year rule applies. Application for CLU would probably fail on the grounds that the use is not lawful and it would simply alert the authority to the planning breach.

Thanks. Is this a scenario where you could get the seller to pay for indemnity insurance, or is it better to start thinking about walking away?

Flat is on a terrace where quite a few people have had loft conversions in the past, and it seems as though one or two get added every year - so I suspect there's a reasonable risk of someone citing the flat's loft conversion in their own application.

Edit: Just in case this makes a difference - the top floor flat was pre-existing, and the owners extended it into the loft space, creating a two-floor flat (i.e. it's not a 'new' flat or subdivision).

anselld

marklee wrote: »

Thanks. Is this a scenario where you could get the seller to pay for indemnity insurance, or is it better to start thinking about walking away?

Flat is on a terrace where quite a few people have had loft conversions in the past, and it seems as though one or two get added every year - so I suspect there's a reasonable risk of someone citing the flat's loft conversion in their own application.

Indemnity would only protect you against the cost of enforcement action not the loss of amenity/value if you had to conform to the smaller plans. It is also mutually exclusive with any attempt to regularise the situation with the planers.

Having said that, it is probably a reasonable risk mitigation if there is already a precedent for such conversions in the street.

PasturesNew

Have you checked that they own the loft space. That's a separate issue to PP.

marklee

anselld wrote: »

Indemnity would only protect you against the cost of enforcement action not the loss of amenity/value if you had to conform to the smaller plans. It is also mutually exclusive with any attempt to regularise the situation with the planers.

Having said that, it is probably a reasonable risk mitigation if there is already a precedent for such conversions in the street.

So - if we were to go ahead it would be a case of having the indemnity until the ten year period elapsed, at which point we'd apply for a Certificate of Lawful Development. At that stage is it 'guaranteed'? We have a dated Certificate of Buildings Compliance, which I'd assume is fairly robust evidence of when the work was completed?

Recognise that hidden in this is the downside risk that we get caught out and ultimately the value of the property could decline as a result.

marklee

PasturesNew wrote: »

Have you checked that they own the loft space. That's a separate issue to PP.

Building freeholder is the same as the flat's leaseholder, so I presume he has that straightened out. Lawyer is checking though.

anselld

marklee wrote: »

Building freeholder is the same as the flat's leaseholder, so I presume he has that straightened out. Lawyer is checking though.

Are you sure. I didn't think it was possible to grant yourself a lease.

marklee

anselld wrote: »

Are you sure. I didn't think it was possible to grant yourself a lease.

Not sure, nope. Still waiting for docs through from my solicitor - but this is how it's been described. I am sure if there is such a barrier, there are ways around it (i.e. setting up a freehold management company of which the guy is the sole director).

Think in general I need to be patient and wait a few days for all the documentation to come through - at the moment there's an element of speculation and guesswork.

marklee

Just in case anyone ever ends up in a similar situation and finds this thread - we got some professional advice from a planning advisor; key points were:

- Four year rule definitely applies here (we pressure-tested them on this again and again!)
- No advantage to waiting to the ten-year threshold before applying for a LDC
- The fact that there is a Buildings Regulations Completion Certificate for the work means that there is a low risk of the council concluding that the work was not substantially completed more than four years ago
- Our case would be supported by also obtaining contracts / invoices / receipts from the seller in relation to the works, and an affidavit confirming the date that the works completed and that the conversion has been occupied continuously since

Would highly recommend the firm we used, who specialise in the London area. Cost was ~£250 for their initial assessment, and they can support the whole process for LDC. DM me if you want their details.