Transfer out of Armed Forces Pension

taktikback

I've enjoyed this thread (long though it may be...)

I'm feeling slightly sorry for the OP - not really suprising he disappeared to lead a normal life...

I'm hoping that whoever this good/bad/ugly chap is - no one gets drawn in...I now see why the government and the profession in general are worried about scams to exit DB schemes..

...of course - if one was to run such a scheme -this would be the perfect place to introduce one's wares..

hypothetically speaking of course....no specific examples available...

jem16

LeoTLion wrote: »

I guess it's not relevant now due to me being outside the time limit to transfer anyway.

There's a very small possibility that your employer could allow longer - worth asking although be prepared for the answer to be no. The link assumes you're in England or Wales - are you?

http://www.lgps.org.uk/lge/core/page.do?pageId=102345

LeoTLion

Cheers.

I'll give the pension people a call on Monday and ask the question.

hyubh

jem16 wrote: »

There's a very small possibility that your employer could allow longer - worth asking although be prepared for the answer to be no.

While you're right about the possibility of an extension, albeit dim, a transfer on Club terms specifically has a 12 month time limit according to Club (rather than scheme) rules. In principle a transfer on non-Club terms could still be worth doing however.

Good_bad_and_ugly

taktikback wrote: »

I've enjoyed this thread (long though it may be...)

I'm feeling slightly sorry for the OP - not really suprising he disappeared to lead a normal life...

I'm hoping that whoever this good/bad/ugly chap is - no one gets drawn in...I now see why the government and the profession in general are worried about scams to exit DB schemes..

...of course - if one was to run such a scheme -this would be the perfect place to introduce one's wares..

hypothetically speaking of course....no specific examples available...

Let's get one thing straight. I have nothing whatsoever to do with scams and neither do I represent any regulated or any unregulated schemes at all. I did not suggest that Pete did leave his DB scheme, whether or not he could. My issue was (is) with the quality of the 'advice' here (and I use the word loosely). Pete was called 'foolish' and dismissed out of hand for posing the question. Could it be in his best interests to transfer out, or stay in? I don't know.

Worryingly, neither does the poster called Dunstonh (sic) who, in response to my suggestion that Pete, the OP, discussed the matter foc with an adviser, to at least determine his circumstances, said it would be a waste of time. This, from someone who pontificated thus as his/her signature..

I am a Financial Adviser. Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. Different people have different needs and what is right for one person may not be for another. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from a Financial Adviser local to you.

So, despite saying to one and all that everyone is different, that someone should take one to one financial advice because everyone is differrent and to do a basic fact find at least, he still saw fit to tell the OP he was foolish within 30 seconds of typing to even consider it. He also told me that talking to an adviser would be a waste of time. (Mate, don't tar all IFA - assuming that you are one - with your brush).

But why the contradiction?

Because the defensive hackles were put up when I pointed out to him/her that they were acting in an unprofessional manner. The truth is, we don't know if Pete either would have been better to DB-DC transfer notwithstanding the date, or wheteher an DB-DB transfer would have worked.

As alluded to, there are many schemes within the club scheme that could work better in Pete's favout but, if he listened to the pompous, poorly imformed and out of date old giffers talking down to him without even asking basic questions, he'd never find out.

Finally, and once again, I never suggested that he transfer out. I suggested that until you know the facts you don't know and are therefore not in a position to safely say either way. But let's be clear. Yes - there ARE circumstances when leaving DB to go DC can work in one's favour and I challenge the naysayers to come out and tell me, outright, that I am wrong. But will they? No, of course they won't - because they know they are wrong and have been held to tenacious account by someone who hates to see slopy, lazy service. Even when it's anonymous.

finally, are there any schemes within the clib transfer that may benefit Pete above and beyond his notional holding wothin AFPS75/05? Potentially, yes. I have found three that offer great advantages over AFPS.

But you need to ask Pete - and no one did. So please don't call me a troll and please don't imply that I am a cowboy who is one of those out to prize the likes of Pete away from their hard earned pension. I'm not. I have forwarded a link of this thread to a poc at the FCA to highlight how the new policy of social media is being undermined by the likes of anonymous posters relying on the kudos and credence of a signature like that, but most definitely and anonymously letting down folk like Pete - folk who come here with a desire and a need to learn more about financial planning.

Pete - if you're still reading this, visit https://www.unbiased.co.uk or visit MAS website and see if the directory of advisers there has anything to offer you. Finally, visit TPAS website. Great service there. Although it's too late to leave AFPS for DC, you clearly have a desire to learn more so do it properly mate. Don't rely on the chumps here (and if you include me in that, that's fine too - sorry your thread was 'ruined').

dunstonh

The truth is, we don't know if Pete either would have been better to DB-DC transfer

We are now on page 5 of this thread and you have still not said how Pete can transfer an unfunded defined benefit scheme to a defined contribution scheme. Something I asked you on page 1 of the thread.

Finally, visit TPAS website. Great service there.

Correct. Here is the link that tells Peter what he already knows but you are ignoring. [url]Http://www.pensionsadvisoryservice.org.uk/about-pensions/when-things-change/when-relationships-end/uk-transfers[/url]

Although it's too late to leave AFPS for DC

So, why on earth have you wasted all this time posting complete and utter rubbish and slagging others off when you know this.

if you're still reading this, visit https://www.unbiased.co.uk or visit MAS website and see if the directory of advisers there has anything to offer you.

And what magic wand do you think they will have?

Good_bad_and_ugly

Let's get this straight. You mention page one. I NEVER said Pete could transfer to a DC scheme. I took you to task over your amateurish, arrogant, dogmatic and crass..

dunstonh wrote: »

You cant. And it would be an extremely foolish thing to do if you could.

And lose a fortune in the process.

The sum will change. Its around 1 in 5 men that wont make 65. You are playing the wrong odds.

Read the latest GAD report on AFPS valuation dated March 2015 (in case you can wrench away from your little empire here) and bring yourself up to date. Look at the huge variance between AFPS and for instance, NHS Mortality rates. While you're at it, look at the GAD AFPS report on the differences in mortality rates between enlisted and commissioned members, and male and female members. Then come back and tell us that the 'odds' are wrong.

I am still stupefied that with a tap of a keyboard, without knowing ANYTHING about the future of CPI, Pete's investment strategy, his circumstances or those of his family, you say ".. and lose a fortune in the process". It beggars belief.

Magic wand? I tell you this much, I hope anyone there has the decency to sit down with Pete and consider his options more fully than you have. If Pete wants to transfer out of DB and because he can't (we KNOW that) and if the reasons are valid enough, a decent adviser would work out a plan. I read the club list, clearly, you didn't. You think that your role as an adviser ends with you decreeing something.. and that's it. With the greatest if all due respect to the amount of thank yous that you've built up here, you're one of the reasons why people get let down by bad avisers.

And don't get me started on your 'advice' to the chap on page two here who received bad SIPP advice in respect of discharging a debt in exchange of a transfer in lieu of repayment. You either didn't read FoS on that last year, you're lazy or your PI indemnity is as slack as you.

Once more, read what I said one page one, and if you can, put it in context. Clue: past tense.. HAVE.

Good_bad_and_ugly wrote: »

OP,

There might be plenty of credible reasons to have transferred out of AFPS. The prescriptive and dogmatic approach that tells you not to be foolish is arrogant (and in the main), poorly informed.

jem16

Good_bad_and_ugly wrote: »

Yes - there ARE circumstances when leaving DB to go DC can work in one's favour and I challenge the naysayers to come out and tell me, outright, that I am wrong. But will they?

Of course there are circumstances when it can work in one's favour. No-one has said otherwise.

In Pete's case it doesn't matter what those circumstances are. He cannot do it as a ban is now in place for transfers out of his scheme to DC pensions.

finally, are there any schemes within the clib transfer that may benefit Pete above and beyond his notional holding wothin AFPS75/05? Potentially, yes. I have found three that offer great advantages over AFPS.

It wouldn't matter if you found that all of the schemes offer better advantages as he's not a member of any of them currently. Perhaps in the future if he does join one of those schemes it might be possible but then again they may have changed the rules.

I have forwarded a link of this thread to a poc at the FCA to highlight how the new policy of social media is being undermined by the likes of anonymous posters relying on the kudos and credence of a signature like that, but most definitely and anonymously letting down folk like Pete - folk who come here with a desire and a need to learn more about financial planning.

First of all dunstonh does not rely on his signature for anything other than to comply with forum rules and to satisfy his compliance department. He is not posting here in a professional capacity and posts purely to help others, something which he does very well. I have no idea why you're rounding specifically on him in this thread when every other poster, apart from you, has agreed with him.

As to contacting the FCA I'm sure they will be glad to read this thread and see that the general consensus of opinion is to leave the DB pension alone. As far as the FCA is concerned, every decision by IFAs to recommend a transfer from DB TO DC will be treated as a missale unless proven otherwise. It is quite clear from judgements by the ombudsman that, even with very clear reasons, a missale has been adjudged to have taken place.

Pete - if you're still reading this, visit https://www.unbiased.co.uk or visit MAS website and see if the directory of advisers there has anything to offer you. Finally, visit TPAS website. Great service there. Although it's too late to leave AFPS for DC, you clearly have a desire to learn more so do it properly mate. Don't rely on the chumps here (and if you include me in that, that's fine too - sorry your thread was 'ruined').

As I said before, sending Pete off to see an IFA at this stage will not help him. Any adviser can only advise on what is available to Pete now and basically that is;

1. He cannot transfer his AFPS to his employer's DC scheme as transfers from unfunded public service schemes to DC schemes have been banned..

2. He cannot transfer to another Defined Benefit scheme, public sector or otherwise, as he is not a member of one.

An adviser can not advise a client to give up his current job and go and seek an alternative job in order to carry out point number two.

So yes, as it stands, Pete would be wasting his time and money at the moment in seeing an IFA. He has been made aware in Page 1 that he could change jobs to Local Government, join the LGPS and then transfer out to a DC scheme is that's what he wants to do. At that point he should contact an IFA as he will require advice to allow him to do that.

Please give the rants and unfounded accusations a rest as they have helped no-one, least of all Pete who is not in a position to even consider any of your ideas.

dunstonh

Read the latest GAD report on AFPS valuation dated March 2015 (in case you can wrench away from your little empire here) and bring yourself up to date. Look at the huge variance between AFPS and for instance, NHS Mortality rates. While you're at it, look at the GAD AFPS report on the differences in mortality rates between enlisted and commissioned members, and male and female members. Then come back and tell us that the 'odds' are wrong.

None of which has anything to do with the questions posted on this thread (as a transfer to defined benefit scheme is not possible) and still doesnt change the fact that statistically, leaving the pension in the occupational pension is likely to be the best option.

If Pete wants to transfer out of DB and because he can't (we KNOW that) and if the reasons are valid enough, a decent adviser would work out a plan.

There is no plan. if you cant do it then you cant do it.

I read the club list, clearly, you didn't. You think that your role as an adviser ends with you decreeing something.. and that's it. With the greatest if all due respect to the amount of thank yous that you've built up here, you're one of the reasons why people get let down by bad avisers.

Again, you are talking about things that have nothing to do with the questions asked on this thread.

I have forwarded a link of this thread to a poc at the FCA to highlight how the new policy of social media is being undermined by the likes of anonymous posters relying on the kudos and credence of a signature like that, but most definitely and anonymously letting down folk like Pete - folk who come here with a desire and a need to learn more about financial planning.

FCA director of strategy and competition Christopher Woolard said just last month: "DB schemes pose particular issues and we need to ensure that those who are considering moving away to other arrangements are fully aware of the potential benefits they are giving up. "In many cases transferring from DB to DC may not be in the member's best interests and ensuring independent advice is taken is an important protection."

Treasury analysis produced alongside the Taxation of Pensions Bill documentation pointed to an average DB scheme funding ratio of 80 per cent and a ‘rational’ transfer rate of 7.6 per cent.

So, that is the FCA position. And the fact is that Pete cannot transfer from an unfunded defined benefit scheme to a defined contribution scheme. Independent advice is not going to change that despite you saying that an IFA can come up with a plan.

When someone on a discussion board asks a question, the normal method is to answer it. You have failed to do that and instead have taken the thread off topic quoting things that have nothing to do with the original question.

It is right for any person to be warned of the valuable guarantees they would be giving up if they transfer out of a defined benefit scheme, that it is statistically unlikely that it is in their best interests and the effective default position that transferring out is likely to be a mis-sale unless proven otherwise. Nowhere does anyone say that will be the case for everyone. It just puts people on guard enough to know that it is unlikely.

Good_bad_and_ugly

Dunstonh

You concede then, finally, that when Chris Woolard suggests..

"DB schemes pose particular issues and we need to ensure that those who are considering moving away to other arrangements are fully aware of the potential benefits they are giving up. "In many cases transferring from DB to DC may not be in the member's best interests and ensuring independent advice is taken is an important protection."

.. that you shouldn't have been so dismissive? After all, all I was suggesting was that Pete go and do that? What was so wrong with saying "Yes Pete, you should.. after all, that's what I advocate in my signature and that's what the FCA advocates too. I was wrong in suggesting it would be a waste of time".

Would it be a waste of time? No, of course not.

Statistically, it is best left in AFPS. I never said it wasn't. But the point is, if you want to use the word 'statistically', you need to establish whether or not Pete falls within the remit of that. He mentioned mortality to you - he offered you a clue, an open door, and you either couldn't be bothered to step through it or you didn't pick up on it. Band there are loads of great schemes within the club scheme that can help someone.

I know of someone who is retiring to the Channel Islands within the remit of the club transfer. According to you, even suggesting he speak with an adviser is a waste of time. The briefest of professional diligence would let an adviser comment on 'plans' (and let's remember, you haven't bothered to establish 'plans' because you really can't be bothered).

Jersey offers a higher deferred pension revaluation rate but Guernsey only recently (end of March), decided to move its state retirement age to 70 - both factors that would give Pete priceless info. But you have prescriptively suggested to Pete that chatting to someone is pointless so he too, would never know that. That, fella, is called carrying out a fact find. That, fella, is referred to as being 'diligent'.

And given that you mentioned statistically, here's one for you. USS. In the club scheme and going from DB to DC, no?

The original question asked if he could do it. We know he can't. I never said he could. But you said he'd be foolish (to consider it, he certainly wouldn't) and you claimed he shouldn't waste time chatting to an adviser anyway. Wrong. A good adviser would at least scour through all 66 pages of SI PSS The Armed Forces Pension Regulations 2014 first.

Maybe you had something else to do, I don't know. But at least don't let someone down because you aren't as on top of your game as you should be. Maybe if you spent less time posting here and more time on tradecraft and regulatory change, you, us (and Pete) would all be better off.