What if the executor is not telling the truth?

JacobPasco

In short: is there a discrete, and polite way of checking what someone's networth upon death was after they've named you as inhereting a percentage of their estate when you're not the executor? What if the executor decides to just not say how much the decesed had in savings, or anything like that? Can this be found out without offending your family member who's been named as executor? Is there some procedure for this?

In long (you probably don't need to read this to understand the above, but just in case):

My daughter's (let's call her Sally) grandfather - my late wife's father - died a couple of years ago with no spouse, and we started to wonder if he'd left anything in his will for us, since no one got in touch. We used the government's new will finding website and there it was.

It turns out that he named his remaining son (my brother in law, let's call him Dave) as executor. He left me £2000, then there was some specific bits and pieces that went to various relatives, and then everything after that was to be divided equally between my daughter Sally and my brother in-law Dave, with Sally's share to be kept in trust until her 18th. Grandad owned a house, and maybe had savings. Dave lives in that house now.

We've always been friendly with Dave, but at the same time we're not super super close. We wanted to strike a balance between not offending him, but also finding out what was up. So we called him, and asked if there was anything, since Sally might got to University one day, etc.

He said he'd have to get back to us which was an alarm bell, since we already had read the will, and knew he must know what it said (it's 1 side of A4 with 7 lines on it). When he got back to us, he told me I had £2000 (which is true), and apologized for not getting on it sooner. Then he started making small talk, so I asked him if Sally was named specifically. He was awkward and cagey, and said "yeah, there was something, not sure, I'll have to get back to you again".

One of two things is happening here.

1. Dave is completely disorganized, and feels awkward and embarassed that he didn't get on this sooner, and doesn't know me well enough to just say that.

2. Dave is trying to pull a fast one, and is stalling for time.

When he does get back to us, he's either going to outright lie, in which case I guess things get legal and nasty, or he's going to tell the truth about Sally's share.

If he does that, I don't think I can just take him at his word at this point, and I think I would need to actually confirm for Sally how much her Grandad had in savings. He might also say there was a morgage against the house, and I don't know how to check if that's true.

So essentially, how can I discretely, or at least politely check if Dave is being honest here?

Thanks.

Annisele

If Dave doesn't cooperate, I think anything you do (or say) risks offending him.

On the little you've said, my money is on him pulling a fast one. If he had to go away to check to find out you had £2k, surely when he checked he noticed Sally owned half a house? Why isn't he paying Sally rent for her half?

Did Dave live in the house before Sally's grandfather died? If he did, maybe he thinks it ought to have been left to him - and rather than doing things properly (i.e. making an application to court) he's just taken matters into his own hands. Unless Dave has some sort of disability or other reason to be financially dependent on his father, I can't see an application to court getting him very far.

You could try paying the Land Registry £3 to see if any charges (mortgages) are registered against the property. If granddad owned the property for a long time, it might not be registered land - but it seems a reasonable place to start.

It is of course possible granddad didn't own the house he lived in. If that's the case, it might show up on a land registry search.

Crabapple

You can check if a Grant of Probate was issued

https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inheritance/searching-for-probate-records

You can also check Land Registry records to see who owns the house (ie whether it has been transferred to someone or is held in the name of the deceased), and if there is a mortgage the lender will also be recorded on the title

https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/search-the-register

Will cost you a few quid for each.

Those documents will give you an idea of what has been done so far, if anything.

getmore4less

What you are looking for is an inventory annd account from the administrator.

it is the first thing you would ask for if you went to court so might as well ask for that up front.

JacobPasco

The probate thing - I've actually got a PDF of that which came with the will, but didn't really understand what it was. I've just taken a better look at it and it says "It is hereby certified that it appears from information supplied on the application for this grant that gross value of the said estate in the United Kingdom does not exceed £325,000 and the net value of such estate does not exceed £206,000". Is that a legalistic way of saying it's just under £206,000, or could it be a lot less than that? Is it possible that this figure is incorrect, if Dave left stuff out when talking to the probate officer?

The land registry thing looks useful. Is it anonymous? That's to say, are they going to get a letter saying I took a look at it?

How about cash, and other assets? Is there an authoritative source on what those were?

Anyway, thanks for the help guys.

JacobPasco

getmore4less wrote: »

What you are looking for is an inventory annd account from the administrator.

it is the first thing you would ask for if you went to court so might as well ask for that up front.

Ask for it from who? The executor? That's Dave. Is it the sort of thing he could falsify?

lavalamp

JacobPasco wrote: »

The probate thing - I've actually got a PDF of that which came with the will, but didn't really understand what it was. I've just taken a better look at it and it says "It is hereby certified that it appears from information supplied on the application for this grant that gross value of the said estate in the United Kingdom does not exceed £325,000 and the net value of such estate does not exceed £206,000". Is that a legalistic way of saying it's just under £206,000, or could it be a lot less than that? Is it possible that this figure is incorrect, if Dave left stuff out when talking to the probate officer?

The land registry thing looks useful. Is it anonymous? That's to say, are they going to get a letter saying I took a look at it?

How about cash, and other assets? Is there an authoritative source on what those were?

Anyway, thanks for the help guys.

When I did probate for my MIL, it said "...does not exceed £325,000, and the net value of such estate does not exceed £xx" - that xx figure was how much was in her estate! I think you need to have serious words with Dave!

SeniorSam

A Trust should have already been set up for Sally and at least 2 Trustees appointed. Not complying with this can be very serious as Sally is being disadvantaged.

This also looks highly suspitious to me and needs to be looked into as soon as possible. If the worst is found, then the money could have been used elsewhere and never recovered.

JacobPasco

SeniorSam wrote: »

A Trust should have already been set up for Sally and at least 2 Trustees appointed. Not complying with this can be very serious as Sally is being disadvantaged.

This also looks highly suspitious to me and needs to be looked into as soon as possible. If the worst is found, then the money could have been used elsewhere and never recovered.

Given the size of the estate according to the probate, and the value of the house, and other things mentioned in the will, I think Sally's share is just half of the house, and no actual cash.

Is a house the sort of thing that has to be held in an official trust, or can "in trust" just mean Dave keeps it until Sally comes of age, then they work it out together as adults?

I went to the Land Registry and got the title. Dave transferred the house to his name about 9 months ago.

sheramber

If the house was part of the remaining estate, as opposed to being a specific bequest, then should it not have been sold and Sally's half share of the money plus half share of any other money left in the estate put in trust for her.

JacobPasco

sheramber wrote: »

If the house was part of the remaining estate, as opposed to being a specific bequest, then should it not have been sold and Sally's half share of the money plus half share of any other money left in the estate put in trust for her.

Dave lives in it with his kids. Nobody wants to kick them all out of their house.

But it's not like it's ever been discussed since we've never been told about the will.