PCN at station carpark - appeal rejected

tishtash78

I am a Newbie so hope I am doing this in the right way!
I am so cross about a PCN I wanted to ask all you experts for advice. I have read many of the interesting and helpful posts on MSE forums but am not sure where to go with my case.

I parked at a station NCP car park for a one off trip to London. The car park was very full (half term) but at the far end of the car park there seemed to be a space with a car parked either side. there were no markings but all the other bay markings in the car park were well worn and patchy. Immediately opposite and in line with where I parked, there were cars parked in poorly marked bays and the area had no signs to show it was not an area to park in.
In no way did my parking obstruct any other vehicles so I parked between the two vehicles and bought a ticket to park for the day. I received a PCN for not parking in a marked bay.
I had no idea you could receive a parking charge in a car park!
On returning to the car park on several occasions to review the area, other cars were parked in the same place, also with PCNs on their windscreen.
I strongly believe that NCP deliberately leave this area unmarked to profit from drivers thinking this is a legitimate parking area of the car park. There is nothing to show why it is not marked with bays especially as the others are so worn. I have taken photos to support this.
I appealed to NCP but as expected they rejected my appeal. I am now thinking I should pay the £50 before it reverts to the full £75 as I am a single mum and this is a lot of money for me to pay.

Can anyone offer me any advice on this? Even if I have to pay I really want to complain and take this further so that other drivers do not fall into their trap in the future.

pogofish

Your failure at the first stage appeal was pretty certain even with a proper challenge, never-mind the appeal-killers you cite above. Facts have next to no bearing in the shady world of PPCs

Just follow-on with the advice/process in the Newbies Sticky now and put together a proper challenge based on the points therein.

It also advises on who else to complain to.

Redx

beat them at popla, cost them £30 and dont pay a penny, job done

just use the usual appeal arguments for popla (not the ticket you bought)

so not a gpeol, no contract , poor signage and markings etc

post #3 of the NEWBIES sticky thread has popla examples

check the expiry date of the popla code and make sure you dont lose track of time, appeal within 3 weeks of it , so a week before it expires , or earlier

its also out of order as they should issue a 40% discount , not 33%

tishtash78

thank you for the replies. I looked at the POPLA appeal form and it only lists 4 options: Can I still appeal if these don't apply? Will I get 'blacklisted' if I don't pay?
1.The vehicle was not improperly parked: e.g. that the vehicle was not parked where stated on the parking charge notice; that you believe you were still within the time you paid for; that the voucher was clearly displayed or that the conditions were not properly signed.
2.The parking charge (ticket) exceeded the appropriate amount: e.g. that you are being asked to pay the wrong amount for the parking charge or that the charge has already been paid.
3. The vehicle was stolen: e.g. that the vehicle was improperly parked after being stolen. However, the fact that someone else was driving your vehicle, for example a family member, friend or colleague, is not in itself a valid ground of appeal. The fact that you told the driver that they could only use your vehicle on condition they did not get any parking tickets is not a valid ground of appeal.
4. I am not liable for the parking charge: e.g. that you had sold the vehicle before, or bought it after, the alleged improper parking. However, the fact that you had paid to park the vehicle in the first place (even if, for example, the voucher was not clearly displayed) is not in itself a valid ground of appeal.

waamo

Don't tick box 3 as your car wasn't nicked. You can tick any one (or all) if the others.

Redx

tick 3 from 4 (not the stolen one) - when you actually appeal on their site

use the usual not a gpeol , no contract , poor signage etc

dont put the popla appeal in until its been drafted and checked on here , so include your finished appeal (minus personal info of course) in your reply

ps:- they dont give you or us the correct appeal options , so that is why you tick all except "stolen" (they dont set out to make it easy)

tishtash78

Hi again,
Ok this is my draft letter to POPLA - all advice/additions/amendments welcome.
I went back to the car park and there is a tiny sign on the pay machine about parking in marked bays but my main grievance is about the poor markings and no obvious reason why this area is a no go one.
All help really appreciated.

Dear Sir or Madam,

I was issued with a parking ticket on [insert date] but I believe it was unfairly and unlawfully issued. I will not be paying the demand for payment for the following reasons:

• The alleged contravention did not occur
Quite simply, the parking attendant got it wrong and the vehicle was not parked inappropriately at the time the ticket was issued.
This is due to the fact that all surrounding bays are poorly marked/worn markings and it is unclear whether this area is marked with bays or not. Please see attached photographic evidence, as proof of my claim.

• There was insufficient signage
The car park in question has no clear signage to explain what the relevant parking restrictions are. This means no contract can be formed with the landowner and all tickets are issued illegally.

I attach a photograph showing the machine where I obtained a ticket – the only signage I was aware of in this area of the car park states that there is a charge of £75 for an improperly displayed ticket (see photo). My ticket was valid and correctly displayed in my vehicle.
The only other sign in the car park was those showing the parking tariffs (see photo).

Only when I returned to the car park to review the area on foot, was I able to see the sign at the entrance which as shown in my evidence was on the opposite side of the footpath and in the smallest print imaginable (which I could not clearly read even when stood in front of it) and is not clear or visible from a vehicle entering the car park (especially as it is on the exit side).

Please see attached photographic evidence I have gathered as proof.

• The charge is disproportionate and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
The amount charged is not based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss to the company or the landowner.

According to the Unfair Consumer Contract Regulations, parking charges on private land must not exceed the cost to the landowner during the period the motorist is parked there. In my case, the £75 charge being asked for far exceeds the cost to the landowner of £2.20 for off peak (after 10am) parking.

I was genuinely shocked to receive a parking charge when I had parked my vehicle in good faith, in no way causing an obstruction or danger and displaying a valid ticket purchased for the duration of my stay.

As my other photographs show, the whole car park is poorly kept with very poor markings throughout. There is an area at the end which has very faded yellow box markings – there are no such markings where I parked to show the area was prohibited to park in.

I truly believe that NCP intentionally keep this area unmarked and unsigned to trap unsuspecting motorists who simply wish to pay for a ticket to park then catch a train.

I have seen several other vehicles on several other occasions parked in the exact same place which upholds my theory.

Yours faithfully,

anotheruser

I've often thought though, if this was a real space, could NCP say that they have missed out on potential season ticket sales for the car park, which could be a few hundred pounds, therefore the charge is appropriate?

I know that doesn't directly relate to the OP.

tishtash78

I hadn't thought of that. However it seems they probably make as much in £75 PCNs on a daily basis. There were four or five cars parked in this area when the car park was full.
All/any advice welcome to help me decide whether to proceed with this appeal.

Umkomaas

Sorry, but you're in danger of losing this! I don't mean to be unduly harsh, but all this stuff 'The parking attendant got it wrong', 'I was genuinely shocked', 'I truly believe', will not only get you nowhere at POPLA, but will likely result in your appeal being rejected.

Mitigation simply does not work!

Go back to the NEWBIES sticky (post #3 - 'How to win at POPLA') and look for a NCP POPLA appeal example. If you can't find one of these look at other appeals, which will be far better targeted/focused than that which you've so far drafted.

As I said, sorry if you think this harsh, but we are really trying to help you through this, and without risk.

tishtash78

I have no problem with anyone being harsh if it helps me with this case.
I am however getting increasingly frustrated trying to find my way around and understand these forums - I've tried searching for the 'Newbie Sticky how to win at Popla' but keep coming up with other threads and am not sure how to find what I'm looking for! I'm an intelligent person but have spent many hours trawling through this and other forums and 'The Parking Attendant got it wrong' was a direct quote from one of the template letters on here when I was advised to use 3 of the 4 reasons.