If there was compulsory training for cyclists, would that put you off cycling?

esuhl

modsandmockers wrote: »

Is that what goes through your mind every time you choose to take on an innocent motorist?

Ha ha ha! :rotfl: What are you on about, you fool?!

How does one "take on an innocent motorist"?! What does that even mean?! Why do you assume that other people are as irritating and reckless as you are? Is it your hateful misanthropy coming through again because no one likes you and you don't have any friends?

So... just for giggles, when you were driving, what went through your head every time you chose to take on an innocent cyclist? What went through your head each time you took on an innocent pedestrian? What went through your head every time you molested an innocent nun?

And lastly... what is actually wrong with you?

modsandmockers

brat wrote: »

Your early responses to Tobster's video thread likewise don't fill me with confidence that you would be likely to give cyclists adequate consideration.

Tobster’s video demonstrated that his understanding of ‘primary riding position’ did not come directly from the advice contained in CycleCraft (I tried several times to start a conversation about the actual content of CycleCraft’s advice, but without success). According to CycleCraft, Tobster’s correct response to the overtaking vehicle would have been to move to the left and allow the car to overtake in safety (he was on a straight and clear stretch of road, and his ‘safety buffer’ was available for his immediate use). And the first responses from other cyclists confirmed Tobster’s video’d experience that primary riding position doesn’t actually achieve its intended result - motorists continue to pass too closely, whatever road position the cyclist chooses

I do actually think you're right. But you shouldn't state it as fact, unless you have evidence. Anecdote and notion is not evidence of fact. In our area, many footpaths have been designated shared paths, without any widening of the path. many other footpaths that run from these paths are not designated as shared, but many cyclists still use them, and I think that use is on the increase

My ‘evidence’ is that of my own personal daily experience - perhaps I should follow Tobster’s example and get a ‘pedestrian-cam’...

brat

modsandmockers wrote: »

brat wrote:

Your early responses to Tobster's video thread likewise don't fill me with confidence that you would be likely to give cyclists adequate consideration.

Tobster’s video demonstrated that his understanding of ‘primary riding position’ did not come directly from the advice contained in CycleCraft (I tried several times to start a conversation about the actual content of CycleCraft’s advice, but without success). According to CycleCraft, Tobster’s correct response to the overtaking vehicle would have been to move to the left and allow the car to overtake in safety (he was on a straight and clear stretch of road, and his ‘safety buffer’ was available for his immediate use). And the first responses from other cyclists confirmed Tobster’s video’d experience that primary riding position doesn’t actually achieve its intended result - motorists continue to pass too closely, whatever road position the cyclist chooses

This is precisely what I mean by your failure to grasp safe cycling concepts, in particular 'positioning for safety'. Tobster was in what he and others recognise as a 'secondary' position, namely a position where he was able to be seen, and not too close to the road edge debris and drain covers to cause a problem. He was not in the primary position - which Cyclecraft defines as centre lane. Whether Tobster should have been in the primary position is up for debate, but he wasn't.

modsandmockers wrote: »

My ‘evidence’ is that of my own personal daily experience - perhaps I should follow Tobster’s example and get a ‘pedestrian-cam’...

That is anecdotal evidence. It may be right, but it is only persuasive to you, no-one else.

modsandmockers

brat wrote: »

Tobster was in what he and others recognise as a 'secondary' position, namely a position where he was able to be seen, and not too close to the road edge debris and drain covers to cause a problem. He was not in the primary position - which Cyclecraft defines as centre lane

Do you seriously expect motorists to understand what you are talking about? Tobster was clearly in the motorist’s way, and could easily have made space for the overtaking vehicle.

brat

modsandmockers wrote: »

Do you seriously expect motorists to understand what you are talking about? Tobster was clearly in the motorist’s way, and could easily have made space for the overtaking vehicle.

Motorists deal with what's in front of them instinctively, and mostly sub-consciously. They therefore have no need to understand what I'm talking about. They just need to deal with what they see, safely, and without attitude. That is their lawful duty.

Once again in the emboldened part of your quote, you display the shocking attitude that the motorists' progress supersedes cyclist safety.

Disgraceful!

Norman_Castle

modsandmockers wrote: »

My ‘evidence’ is that of my own personal daily experience - perhaps I should follow Tobster’s example and get a ‘pedestrian-cam’...

You should get one. It'll suit you.

esuhl

modsandmockers wrote: »

Tobster was clearly in the motorist’s way, and could easily have made space for the overtaking vehicle.

You were obviously a dangerous driver for a very long time, so it would take a lot of retraining for you to learn how to drive properly. This video is a good introduction for how to overtake cyclists:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2cHMaKPR20

modsandmockers

esuhl wrote: »

You were obviously a dangerous driver for a very long time, so it would take a lot of retraining for you to learn how to drive properly. This video is a good introduction for how to overtake cyclists:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2cHMaKPR20

I followed your link, and the video makes perfect sense for the perfect world of PC Plod and Postman Pat. But the video which immediately followed was this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvmU_egOZjU - please watch it right to the end…

Here is the only attempt so far to discuss John Franklin’s actual words - "Tobster was in what he and others recognise as a 'secondary' position, namely a position where he was able to be seen, and not too close to the road edge debris and drain covers to cause a problem. He was not in the primary position - which Cyclecraft defines as centre lane" - so I thought I would copy this bit of a post which was ‘thanked’ by Brat and Esuhl when it appeared on page 2 of the ‘CycleCraft’ thread -

"(some snippets from chapter 7 pp 101-106 in the 2014 paperback edition … an important rule of road sharing is that no-one should unnecessarily impede the passage of anyone else … because the primary riding position can result in some inconvenience to following drivers, it is reasonable to ride further to the left when this could help others … on lightly trafficked roads where you use the primary riding position, keep aware of conditions behind you, using both eyes and ears … as soon as you sense a following vehicle, plan your move to the secondary position … on busy roads, it will be necessary to keep to the secondary position most of the time … on some country lanes, do try to let traffic pass as soon as a suitable opportunity occurs, even if this required you to slow down a little …)"

Road edge debris and drain covers are indeed a specific hazard for cyclists, but it is usually easy to spot them early enough to be able to include them in your cycling plan. As I posted some time ago, one of the pleasures of teaching motorcyclists to drive a car was the fact that they instinctively paid attention to the road surface. If a cyclist moves from primary position to secondary, but by doing so remains in the way of the faster moving traffic, then he/she might as well not have bothered - the half-arsed manoeuvre is likely to be interpreted as an invitation to pass too closely.

Road edge debris which is not immediately visible creates a risk of puncture, but, as I have mentioned before, this is a problem for bicycle tyre manufacturers - motorists no longer have to include the risk of punctures in their calculations.

Norman_Castle

modsandmockers wrote: »

But the video which immediately followed was this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvmU_egOZjU - please watch it right to the end…

Its a video of a cyclist making questionable and unnecessary use of the primary position. Your point?.

Tobster86

I don't see how any of that is relevant to my previous video. I was in secondary position and it wasn't on a country lane. There is nothing in that snippet to suggest any obstructive wrongdoing on my part; in fact some would argue that I was wrong NOT to be in primary position there as there was not space for two abreast vehicles plus a bicycle.