Charged due to small print rule

unholyangel

JethroUK wrote: »

16/17 year old s cannot sign a contract, so you won't find them living alone unless "an adult" has signed rental agreement for them and this same "adult" will need to be present for the exact same reasons

That said the repair man could've waited a few minutes for an adult to return

What you might be thinking of is that under 18's cannot usually be held to a contract. However, they can still be sued for debts arising from things like food, shelter etc.

I got my first house when I was 17 and signed the contract for it by myself.

JReacher1 wrote: »

They can (and have) charged for the first visit.

They have to make two trips due to the fact the OP was not present when the engineer called. That is loss and it's been caused by the first trip which is the one that should be charged for. The second visit is covered by the warranty agreement and can not therefore be charged for.

Posters like yourself who give inaccurate advice to posters with problems are a tad annoying. You agree the OP is liable to be charged for one of the two trips and are trying to muddy the water by disputing whether the first trip is chargeable (when it clearly is)

It doesn't really help the OP

If you really want me to explain the basics of contract law, then I will. But its something most regulars on this board are familiar with.

The purpose for a remedy of a breach of contract is to put the party not in breach in the position they would have been in had the contract been completed correctly. Now assuming there is a contract which places OP under obligation to make sure there was an adult home.....then the repairer would have earned £0 from that visit as it was free. Therefore by OP breaching the terms, they have lost £0. There is a potential loss of the 2nd visit but not for the first. OP could choose not to get them out again and their loss would still be £0.

And I keep saying assuming there is a contract because a contract can only exist where there has been consideration from both parties (where one promises x in exchange for y). A one sided promise is called a gift and does not create legal obligations.

ami66

Thanks for the replys - lot of differing opinions.

To clear a few things up -

We only found about the terms when my husband called when he got home after the engineer had left. I would point out this was about 8.25am so only 15 minutes after the engineer had first arrived on the doorstep.

He was directed to the terms on the company website, at no point had we been to their website during the course of arranging this repair. In the first instance I emailed them via the email address on our paypal receipt. They then dealt with my husband by phone - no post, no email so no documents.

He was warned that if the installation was not done correctly then there would be a charge for the call out - that should have told us what sort of company we were dealing with as they obviously use any excuse they can to charge for so called free in warranty repairs. At no point was he told an over 18 year old had to be at home.

My son is nearly 17 and as a well built 6ft 4" lad he had to be asked 'are you actually 18?' by the engineer. He could easily have said he was 18 when asked but he chose not to lie, he didn't expect there to be a problem given he dealt with the broken dishwasher only a few weeks ago without any problem.

While I'm pleased my son was honest as he's been brought up to be, he's miffed that his honesty has cost us £63 :rotfl: and we still have a broken appliance that is making all our life's a misery.

Whilst I appreciate the technical nature of the 'minor home alone comments' the irony is that my son will be let loose in a car within weeks but apparently isn't capable of letting an engineer in the house.

How about a slightly different scenario?

My elder son was at home instead. He's has a job, owns his own car for which he has a credit agreement for the monthly insurance and has his own mobile phone contract. Any other week and he would have been home but was at an university interview that morning.

Would he have been any more suitable?

Thing is he's only 18 not OVER 18 as per their terms so I would still be dealing with charge for a minor home alone according to this company.

And the real irony in that scenario? At 18 I was living on my own home without an over 18 present.

sinizterguy

ami66 wrote: »

Thing is he's only 18 not OVER 18 as per their terms so I would still be dealing with charge for a minor home alone according to this company.

And the real irony in that scenario? At 18 I was living on my own home without an over 18 present.

Unless he was turning 18 the minute the engineer walked in, he is over 18.

18y and 1 day old is over 18.

ami66

JReacher1 wrote: »

He's a contractor for a company and will have several jobs that day. He can't just wait as that would throw out his whole days appointments and he would be in trouble with his employers.

The only person who has done nothing wrong in this whole scenario is the contractor.

So why wasn't he at my home at 8am when we had been told that was the earliest appointments started?

If my slot was 8am to 11am and he hadn't arrived at 8.05am when I decided to leave, was it not reasonable to expect he had gone to another job first and therefore he was unlikely to arrive before 8.30am.

I know there are some brilliant engineers out there but to arrive, find the fault, fix it, fill out the paperwork and be at the next call at 8.05 he would have to be out of this world having achieved all that in 5 minutes.

daytona0

unholyangel wrote: »

The purpose for a remedy of a breach of contract is to put the party not in breach in the position they would have been in had the contract been completed correctly. Now assuming there is a contract which places OP under obligation to make sure there was an adult home.....then the repairer would have earned £0 from that visit as it was free. Therefore by OP breaching the terms, they have lost £0. There is a potential loss of the 2nd visit but not for the first. OP could choose not to get them out again and their loss would still be £0.

And I keep saying assuming there is a contract because a contract can only exist where there has been consideration from both parties (where one promises x in exchange for y). A one sided promise is called a gift and does not create legal obligations.

Good post like, but there is possibly an instance whereby the failed 1st visit incurs costs.... The engineer (or even the manufacturer) may rely on completed warranty repairs for payment from someone else. In such a case then an uncompleted warranty repair may incur charges despite the fact that the consumer sees it as a free service. Someone may have lost out due to the OP's mistake.

For example, the engineer may only get paid wages when they complete a warranty repair when a form is signed by someone who is legally allowed to sign for it. That would make sense as to why the small print states what it does, and why the engineer didn't complete the work. If this was all true then can you blame him for trying to make OP liable for money he lost out on?

Just a bit of speculation really

JReacher1

ami66 wrote: »

So why wasn't he at my home at 8am when we had been told that was the earliest appointments started?

If my slot was 8am to 11am and he hadn't arrived at 8.05am when I decided to leave, was it not reasonable to expect he had gone to another job first and therefore he was unlikely to arrive before 8.30am.

I know there are some brilliant engineers out there but to arrive, find the fault, fix it, fill out the paperwork and be at the next call at 8.05 he would have to be out of this world having achieved all that in 5 minutes.

I think when the appointment window is 8-11 and he arrives at 8:10am then it's a pretty good level of service!

They give you a time slot and its your responsibility to make sure a (valid) person is present during this time slot.

None of this is the the engineers fault, he arrived at his scheduled time and he couldn't complete the job due to you not being there. He should not have to wait for you to turn up as that would throw out the rest of his scheduled day.

JReacher1

unholyangel wrote: »

What you might be thinking of is that under 18's cannot usually be held to a contract. However, they can still be sued for debts arising from things like food, shelter etc.

I got my first house when I was 17 and signed the contract for it by myself.




If you really want me to explain the basics of contract law, then I will. But its something most regulars on this board are familiar with.

The purpose for a remedy of a breach of contract is to put the party not in breach in the position they would have been in had the contract been completed correctly. Now assuming there is a contract which places OP under obligation to make sure there was an adult home.....then the repairer would have earned £0 from that visit as it was free. Therefore by OP breaching the terms, they have lost £0. There is a potential loss of the 2nd visit but not for the first. OP could choose not to get them out again and their loss would still be £0.

And I keep saying assuming there is a contract because a contract can only exist where there has been consideration from both parties (where one promises x in exchange for y). A one sided promise is called a gift and does not create legal obligations.

You have a basic understanding of contract law which you are trying to fit into this scenario when it doesn't apply. It is also irrelevant as the OP has to pay for one of the two visits so you're just pedantically trying to say it's the second one she has to pay for (which is inaccurate).

Either way it doesn't really help the OP!

mije1983

ami66 wrote: »

So why wasn't he at my home at 8am when we had been told that was the earliest appointments started?

Maybe he had a flat tyre that needed changing.

Maybe there was an accident on his route to you that held him up.

Maybe his alarm clock didn't go off.

Maybe he couldn't be bothered to get petrol the night before so got it on his way to you in the morning.

Maybe one of his kids had to be taken to hospital.

Maybe he had got to his first appointment early.

Maybe he misjudged how long it would take to get to you.

Maybe he generally starts 10 minutes late every day because he can get away with it.

There are so many possibilities that there is no way anyone on here could actually answer that!

ami66 wrote: »

If my slot was 8am to 11am and he hadn't arrived at 8.05am when I decided to leave, was it not reasonable to expect he had gone to another job first and therefore he was unlikely to arrive before 8.30am.

No, for many reasons, not limited to the ones I mentioned above. What would have been considered reasonable was to have an appropriate person in your home between your appointment hours of 8am-11am.

Zandoni

mije1983 wrote: »

No, for many reasons, not limited to the ones I mentioned above. What would have been considered reasonable was to have an appropriate person in your home between your appointment hours of 8am-11am.

The OP was originally told the earliest he would get there was 9.00, is it reasonable to change this the day before? I think not.

JReacher1

Zandoni wrote: »

The OP was originally told the earliest he would get there was 9.00, is it reasonable to change this the day before? I think not.

If they couldn't do the new time they shouldn't have accepted it when it was given to them.

It's pretty standard when dealing with deliveries, contractors etc. to be given an initial large timeframe and then the day before given a smaller window.