Previous service - terms of service query

Ivrytwr3

3 years reckonable service with Army, break of 3 years and then joined RAF with 18yrs RAF service completed so far.

I signed for 22yrs, but my actual contract is for 19yrs as the RAF have counted my previous army service - so in their eye i will have completed 22yrs (make sense?!)

However, i have 2 colleagues who have previous service, but they will complete the full 22yrs and the previous service only counts for pension, NOT for actual length of service.

I have approached my HR and JPAC, but i am being given conflicting advice on this matter.

Any thoughts on what is right/wrong or best people to speak to?!

Ta!

Ivrytwr3

Guess no-one knows the answer here too!

Apollonia

Maybe if you said which pension scheme you are on? It's difficult to advise without more information.

Ivrytwr3

AFPS75, moving onto AFPS15 in Apr.

However, this is a terms of contract question, not pension.

Apollonia

Basically, you are very lucky that you rejoined when AFPS 75 was still available. Because both your periods of sevice fall under the same pension scheme your years can be aggregated.
Anyone with service under AFPS 75 who rejoined after AFPS 05 couldn't do this. Their earlier years did not count towards IDP or EDP.
The policy was reviewed and changed in December 2013 so as not to disadvantage some people regarding their pensions.

I suspect your two colleagues are eligible for this:

From the date that the legislation is implemented, individuals with service in AFPS 75 and service in AFPS 05 will be able to aggregate the periods of service and where the total exceeds 18 years paid service, and they are over the age of 40, they will qualify for an AFPS 05 EDP.

RAF IBN 29/13 explains all.

There's a link on this page:
http://www.raf.mod.uk/community/news/archive/afps05-members-who-rejoin-the-raf-15112013

Ivrytwr3

Hey Apollina,

I appreciate your input and the links, but this isn't about pensions. My query is about terms of service.

Basically, when joining RAF should i have been given 22yrs service or 19yrs as i already had 3 years army behind me?

Apollonia

TOS and pensions are inextricably linked and especially for re-enlisters one very much influences the other.
If you look at the armed forces pension & benefits calculator that is made clear in the first sentence.

Your pension scheme is an important part of your conditions of service. As a member of the Armed Forces you are entitled to a valuable range of benefits which help provide financial security for you in retirement, and for your family in the event of your death.

http:// http://www.mod-abc.co.uk/MoreInfo.aspx?code=PENSION

So terms of service will vary depending on the initial pension scheme, length of initial service, how long the gap was before re-enlistment, which pension scheme was operating on re-enlistment date, whether someone on AFPS75 had voluntarily switched to AFPS05...

Ivrytwr3

OK,

Army join date: 1990
Left 1994 with 3 years pensionable service.

RAF Join date: 1997, still serving to 2016 (only 19 RAF service but 22 military service if combined with army.).

Soon to be offered 30yr contract, but should it 27yrs total RAF or 30yrs. Because it appears people with the same circumstances are getting different contracts (all on AFPS75).

Apollonia

Soon to be offered 30yr contract, but should it 27yrs total RAF or 30yrs. Because it appears people with the same circumstances are getting different contracts (all on AFPS75).

The new contracts are because of the compulsory move to AFPS 15 for all serving personnel (unless they have transitional protection).There's a FAQ about AFPS 15 linked here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-new-armed-forces-pension-scheme-q-and-a

The people who appear to have the same circumstances may well have slight differences where they miss the cut-off for various reasons.

I'm looking in particular at these paragraphs:

I’ve heard mention of protection for certain groups, what does this mean?
The Government has offered transitional protection for those within ten years of their respective
scheme’s Normal Pension Age (NPA) on 1 April 2012. AFPS 75, AFPS 05 and FTRS 97 (Full
Commitment) have a NPA of 55. RFPS 05, FTRS 97 (on Limited or Home Commitment) and
NRPS have a NPA of 60.
This means if you are a member of AFPS 75, AFPS 05 or FTRS 97 (FC) and were aged 45 or over
on 1 April 2012, you will stay on your current pension scheme and your benefits will be unaffected.

My current Terms of Service (ToS) mean I will have to exit the Armed Forces before I qualify
for the EDP/ reach the Normal Pension Age (NPA) under the new scheme, should I apply for
an extension to my ToS?
As a general principle, all eligible Service personnel who will be serving beyond 1 Apr 15 on an
engagement or commission which currently allows them to reach their current scheme’s Immediate
Pension (IP) point or EDP (18/40) point, but not the EDP point for AFPS 15 (20/40), will be offered
an extension to align with the revised Terms of Service. The RN and RAF will be the first to make
offers to extend most of their personnel in these transitional groups, the Defence Medical Services
and the Army plan making offers in mid-2014, after the current restructuring is concluded.

Just from the info quoted above, someone who was 45 in March 2012 will be covered by transitional protection but a 45th birthday in May 2012 - they miss out and have to switch to AFPS 15 and new contract.

Likewise the new ToS will vary depending on the individuals' exact dates of service. A contract that allows service personnel to achieve maximum pension/benefits may have to be individually tailored because of previous circumstances. For example, I know that people who took maximum maternity leave(s) had extended service to 'make the time up' to qualify for their pensions under AFPS 75. Others took minimum maternity leave and their 'run-out' date stayed the same. Time spent in jail also affects reckonable/qualifying service.

So it may appear to be the same circumstances but there could be small differences affecting some individuals.

Anyway, have a look at the FAQ and the AFPS 15 publication "What you need to know" and see if that helps.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/afps-2015-what-you-need-to-know

Ivrytwr3

Hee hee, is your day job a politican? YOu have given a load of information (thank you!) but this isn't what i am asking.

My contract of service was signed in 1997 - way before AFPS15 - and the contract was for 19 years not 22 years. Whereas my colleagues at the same time signed for 22yrs even though they had the same previous service.

My question is, why did they get 22 and i get 19?

Apollonia

Ivrytwr3 wrote: »

Hee hee, is your day job a politican? YOu have given a load of information (thank you!) but this isn't what i am asking.

My contract of service was signed in 1997 - way before AFPS15 - and the contract was for 19 years not 22 years. Whereas my colleagues at the same time signed for 22yrs even though they had the same previous service.

My question is, why did they get 22 and i get 19?

I had a longer reply written and lost it when I clicked submit so here's the short version.

1. If you and your colleagues have the EXACT same previous service then someone either made a mistake or has misunderstood their ToS.

So are you sure that your colleagues exactly the same age as you, served exactly the same times as you, were out for the same length of time before re-enlisting, both served army before joining RAF, same trade/s, same return of service rules, no maternity leave, no periods of imprisonment, no junior soldier or apprentice time. Were their original 1990 contracts exactly the same as yours (recruits could opt to sign up for longer than the 4 yr minimum and could PVR in those days), were their discharge codes exactly the same as yours?

2. All of this is actually irrelevant now that everyone will move to AFPS 15 and the same ToS.