Advice reclaiming payment after paying and then discovering I was entitled to park!

xbagpuss

Hi,
Now, I followed all the rules, essentially. I wrote one polite letter, then ignored them - back in April. However, I became quite seriously ill, and I think the medication they put me on made me a little paranoid - anyway, I capitulated and paid £80 to a debt recovery firm (I just wanted it to go away whilst I focused on getting better). Fortunately, I am (better), for now, and I'm furious with myself for capitulating especially as I since learnt that I was entitled to park there for the purposes of unloading.

A little background, I live in a Leasehold property, and thanks to the (old) Management Company being entirely unreasonable, they changed the code on the padlock for the gate so we were forced to park in front of the gate (where there are signs - and space for one car) in order to unload. I was there for maybe 5-10 minutes, and I happen to know that I must have been ticketed in the last couple of minutes as i popped into the meter room on my last trip to get a reading and this recorded the time.

They did send a letter containing an appeal form for POPLA, but I concluded (with the knowledge I had at the time) that a win was unlikely. Was I wrong? Anyway, I thought a loss would hugely weaken my case, and I didn't intend to pay anyway and felt pretty safe at the time.

The crucial bit of information came about 2 months ago when as a Leasehold owner I attended an EGM (which was actually about kicking out the current Management company - which we did). I mentioned this parking business (I was actually trying to get someone to agree residents should have access to load/unload) and immediately several directors commented that it was in the agreement between the Management company and residents that loading/unloading for a reasonable amount of time (interpret as you will) is permitted and not ticketable.

I asked if this was in writing somewhere and they said possibly, but it would have to be found and could take time - besides, the current management company would have it, and it sounded like it was going to be a military operation just to get all the files off the current management company (I jokingly compared it to the Japanese ambassadors trying to meet the deadline before the bombing started at Pear Harbour) as plans were being laid to turn up at both management offices simultaneously to collect files as soon as the termination was delivered so they didn't get the chance to mess us about wrt. the paperwork.

I can go into more detail if required, but should I invoice them - and if so who, the original company that ticketed me, or the debt recovery company they passed it on to?

Now of course they won't pay, but would a SCC application be likely successful? If I can't get the paperwork, I can certainly get statements from the directors about the original agreement.

On a positive note, despite the payment and the fact it wasn't really me up to me despite telling LDK it was (although I have insisted we change parking company, and everyone agreed) - in my original letter refusing to pay on the grounds the charge exceeded any loss to the landowner, I think I enclosed a cheque for a tenner which the cheeky !!!!!!s later called "derisory" - technically the owner of the Freehold is the landowner, but by proxy the resident owners (ie me!) seem to have a reasonable claim to be the ones inconvenienced should there in fact be any inconvenience. I also (politely) stated that if they pursued this matter then I would ensure they lost their contract. At least that bit worked out!
The original ticketer was LDK, and the recovery firm I paid by credit card was Zeneth Collections I think. Paperwork looked similar thought!
Oh yes, and I did ring (can't remember which) and I wa angrily told that by paying I had admitted liability - I doubt this is true, but is it?

Thanks for any help you guys can offer

pogofish

xbagpuss wrote: »

Hi,
Now, I followed all the rules, essentially. I wrote one polite letter, then ignored them - back in April.

Ignoring has not been advised for a long time now - around two years, since POFA 2012 came-in.

This forum's record of wins at POPLA is very high indeed - see the POPLA Victories thread, so you were quite wrong there too.

Once you pay a PPC or their debt collectors, the chances of your reclaiming anything is usually very slim indeed - you could try a very strong complaint to the management company but honestly, chalking it up to experience, educating yourself about the PPC model and ensuring nobody else you know gets caught-out is the best way to go.

Start with the Forum Stickies.

The_Deep

Did you pay under protest?

xbagpuss

You're probably right - but I noticed that rejections had increased since the scheme was introduced, and under the terms of what I'd done, despite there being plenty of mitigating circumstances (which they don't consider), I concluded, partly on advice from this forum, that I would probably loose as my case was excessive charge - if that worked for a £45 invoice, POPLA would have to uphold 95% of appeals I would have thought.

However yes, chalking it up to experience is something I've already done. It was the specific circumstances though where I just didn't want distractions and in the grander scheme of things it's seemed a small price to pay.

Also, I've just been reading thread after thread of people advising others to just ignore. Personally, that's not really my style, hence the letter - but this experience and previous ones (this is the first time I've ever had to pay any parking charge, I considered myself quite good at beating them, I've even beaten Parking Eye at a hospital despite the pictures etc...) suggest some communication is necessary/useful, but only if it's reasonable. If they ignore you and send the same letter over and over it seems a perfectly reasonable policy to ignore them (after all, they're ignoring you).

As for paying under protest - given all my objections you could certainly say so, but there wasn't a box on the website I paid on for "paying under protest". It would be clear to anybody reviewing all the documentation that it was intimidation that triggered payment and yes, done under protest, even if not stated explicitly. I think I wrote "without prejudice" at the top of my communication if that helps.

The_Deep

I think I wrote "without prejudice" at the top of my communication if that helps.

No but your explanation here makes good sense.

ManxRed

Sign up here:

http://challengethefine.com/index2.php?utm_expid=91325565-7.Ly1YDuvzTbKTpXcaqnQDmg.1&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.co.uk%2F

pogofish

xbagpuss wrote: »

You're probably right - but I noticed that rejections had increased since the scheme was introduced,

I concluded, partly on advice from this forum,

Also, I've just been reading thread after thread of people advising others to just ignore.

Rejections by PPCs are routine, yes - its when people get to POPLA that the real work of overturning them gets done.

Old/outdated advice! - Not normally given, except in very specific circumstances like non ATA PPCs who can't get details from the DVLA and powerless debt collectors like DRP since things changed over a few months from Sept 2012.

Did you read any current threads - or even the Forum Stickies, which is where all the most current approaches are detailed and kept up to date? This forum does depend on your being able to do just a little to help yourself and basic knowledge like stickies and current threads is important.

You can try challengethefine but TBH, any attempt to reclaim money from PPCs is gong to be an uphill struggle as they will fight tooth and nail and very likely disregard any attempt to get money out of them.

xbagpuss

I actually meant POPLA rejections.
I remember seeing a graph that showed they began by upholding about 80%, but levelled out around or just bellow 50%. Presumably due to various factors I needn't go into.

And yes, I know my chances are slim, but it's the principle. That's my money they've got, and I was well on course to keeping it until life interviened. I want to cost them some time and money dealing with me too - but obviously winning is better than just making a point, and it'd be nice to do both.

HO87

This scenario has got "complicated" written through it like a stick of rock.

LDK are one of the minnows and, to my knowledge, have never been particularly litigious even if they had a case in court in the last few weeks (that may well not be connected to their activity as a PPC). Had you stuck to your original intention (albeit misguided) you may well have succeeded in keeping your money.

The situation has all the hallmarks of what is known as a "self-ticketing" operation where LDK supply the signs and the back-up but the PCN's are actually issued by someone on the management company's staff or even a willing tenant. This has the prospect of complicating matters because (as the vast majority of "self-ticketing" schemes involve the payment of a bounty on each ticket paid - not issued) it may well be that the gates were closed and padlocked by someone for reasons other than simple security. In any event neither the management company nor any tenant are going to admit to such actions and determining who closed/locked the gates may never be possible.

So, the former management company may - dependant on what their agreement with the freeholder actually says (nobody knows and there doesn't seem to be any great will to establish it) - have some form of liability for failing to allow access and failing to inform the PPC who were probably acting as a back-office in any event. The management company will deny any liability and so will LDK.

The $64,000 question is: How much time, effort and money are you willing to invest in recovering £80? Unless and until the precise wording of the MC and the freeholder's agreement is obtained and the person who shut and locked the gate at that time on that day is identified together with who issued the PCN you will, IMHO be chasing ghosts.

Incidentally, LDK used to operate their own, in-house debt collectors who rejoiced under the name of "Ethical Debt Recovery Services". Could your letter/payment have been from/to them? They supposedly operated out of an address in North London but in reality it was run out of the same offices in the MK Centre. You could call LDK one minuite on their MK number and speak to "Kelvin" and then dial the old North London number for EDRS and speak to "Kelvin" again only this time apparently in Woodberry Grove, Finchley.

That said, it might be worth a strong letter. Kelvin appears to be far more interested in his journalism these days as he is the editor of NewsAfrica and he might just feel generous. He doesn't even mention his directorship of LDK Security Group or any connection to private parking on his LinkedIn profile any more. Well, not obviously that is but if you scroll to the bottom and look at the groups he's a member of you'll see that "Parking Professionals" is included. Perhaps he's ashamed of or embarrassed about that?

ampersand

op - do you want to remove name, #1, #4?

xbagpuss

Thanks for the information. Very much appreciated.
My intention is to give it a go - treat it as a learning experience and who knows what may happen. It'll also either make me feel better, or it could wind me up more. Now I have the info you gave me I'll try that first.
If it becomes obvious it's more trouble than it's worth I'll call it a day. As I've said it's principle and pride given I've never failed to avoid a parking invoice before.
One question though, you refer to what presumably was the "ignore them" technique as misguided, yes? You seem to know your stuff, and given the fact it's worked so well for me in the past, not always - I didn't blank Parking Eye for example, just got a friend who worked in estates to put my reg on the system - (didn't say that, and anyway it was obviously a joke.... what makes you shy away from not engaging - especially if they're ignoring you? Actually Imcan't frame it better than you did, why is it a misguided strategy? What would work better (I'm not being challenging, just genuinely after strategies)?

One other idea - I'm going to call the credit card company and explain exactly what happened. I expect they'll say "we don't want to get involved in this" but you never know, maybe if I persuaded them it was payment under duress. Hang on I'm talking nonsense here - that almost sounds like a hostage situation, I am a grown up after all, and take responsibility for my decisions. Ignore that.

Anyway thanks again.