We’d like to remind Forumites to please avoid political debate on the Forum.
This is to keep it a safe and useful space for MoneySaving discussions. Threads that are – or become – political in nature may be removed in line with the Forum’s rules. Thank you for your understanding.
📨 Have you signed up to the Forum's new Email Digest yet? Get a selection of trending threads sent straight to your inbox daily, weekly or monthly!
The Forum now has a brand new text editor, adding a bunch of handy features to use when creating posts. Read more in our how-to guide
who is liable ??- slightly different problem.
Comments
-
You say changing supplier won't help , why ?,
Well in the sense that the fault is likely to still be there. I would assume the new provider will not want to take on someone else's problem and the old provider will say see ya!you use their network for the transport of your telephony, so consider a call made to you from a full BT customer , call originates on BT , routes thru your MPF providers network onto Openreach wires to your home, all you have done so far is explored the OR part of this chain, but what if the problem is with your MPF provider ?, what steps , if any, have they taken to prove their equipment, even if they say they have checked it thoroughly , can you be confident in their actions ?
I can only take their word for it. There has been a number of times and the notes recorded say they done x,y and z. However, each time the OR engineer visited he seemed to be unaware others had been before him - so there does seem to be lack of communication between OR and provider which is SKY.
As I have no experience with telephone engineering, I have no clue to the detail of how it works. I don't know the precise details and equipment used to route calls or how this equipment interconnects.
For instance, the call goes from home to exchange via OR lines and cabs. In the exchange the call is picked up by the MPF providers equipment. I'm assuming from there it goes to the next exchange via trunk owned by BT, thus not the responsibility of the MPF provider.
The MPF equipment at the exchange I'm guessing is a multi-port switch which will be shared by many users. Therefore, if other users are not complaining then it could only be a faulty port in that switch or the connecting cables - both of these have been changed I'm told.If you have an aversion to having BT as your supplier , and for arguments sake you are a Talk Talk customer, by swapping provider to Sky your call would obviously at no part use TT so if it's the TT network that's got the problem, you won't be affected by it, and obviously vice versa swapping from Sky to TT
I take your point that it would rule out the MPF providers network. However, if that was at fault I'd guess there would be other similar problems reported. None I have spoke to have come across this fault previously.
So if I switch, the new provider would likely wipe their hands of it as it is an existing fault - in the same way a health insurance switch would not cover a pre-existing condition.0 -
Well in the sense that the fault is likely to still be there. I would assume the new provider will not want to take on someone else's problem and the old provider will say see ya!
I can only take their word for it. There has been a number of times and the notes recorded say they done x,y and z. However, each time the OR engineer visited he seemed to be unaware others had been before him - so there does seem to be lack of communication between OR and provider which is SKY.
As I have no experience with telephone engineering, I have no clue to the detail of how it works. I don't know the precise details and equipment used to route calls or how this equipment interconnects.
For instance, the call goes from home to exchange via OR lines and cabs. In the exchange the call is picked up by the MPF providers equipment. I'm assuming from there it goes to the next exchange via trunk owned by BT, thus not the responsibility of the MPF provider.
The MPF equipment at the exchange I'm guessing is a multi-port switch which will be shared by many users. Therefore, if other users are not complaining then it could only be a faulty port in that switch or the connecting cables - both of these have been changed I'm told.
I take your point that it would rule out the MPF providers network. However, if that was at fault I'd guess there would be other similar problems reported. None I have spoke to have come across this fault previously.
So if I switch, the new provider would likely wipe their hands of it as it is an existing fault - in the same way a health insurance switch would not cover a pre-existing condition.
The point I was making is that Sky as your provider use their own network , not BT's , so any call made or received by you is 'carried' over their equipment, so say a call made by a Sky customer on another exchange to you, the call doesn't involve anyone other than Sky, and Sky's network, so if the problem was in Sky's network, and they keep passing the buck to Openreach who are only responsible for the lineplant between the exchange and your property, then a swapping cable pairs etc, will not resolve the problem (obviously).
You say you are not an expert in how the calls are managed, but in mordern networks , in simple terms the 'transmit' and 'recieve' paths are separate , so it's entirely possible to have a situation where only one party can hear the other , but the call stays 'connected' , infact a problem on the lineplant (cables) would probably affect the entire call, so say a noisy line would be apparent to both party's on the call
You may have a point that if the problem is a network problem wouldn't it affect other people, but how can you know if other people are being affected or not ?, perhaps Sky have other customers suffering similar problems, perhaps they have OR looking for defects in their lineplant instead of investigating network issues.
Are the calls affected always to the same person, if so who is their provider, Sky, BT TT,mobile provider ?, do they live locally or some distance away or are the affected calls from various people and spread over many different providers ? these are the type of questions your provider should have asked you to try and pin point where the problem may be, have they ever asked you these things ?
You obviously are perfectly at liberty to stay with your current provider, you can keep reporting the problem to Sky who can pass the problem onto Openreach, and they can keep giving your line a clean bill of health, but if, and it's only an 'if' the problem is not on your physical cable pair between the exchange and your house how will it ever be resolved ?0 -
The point I was making is that Sky as your provider use their own network , not BT's , so any call made or received by you is 'carried' over their equipment, so say a call made by a Sky customer on another exchange to you, the call doesn't involve anyone other than Sky, and Sky's network,
I'm not sure if we have different understandings of the term 'network'. I understand the point you are making but don't have the logical sequencing you are referring to. So, if a call is made by Mr A in Manchester to Mr B in London, both with Sky, then the call would go to Mr A's exchange and hit the Sky equipment in that exchange. It then is routed via physical cabling to Mr B's London exchange. Once it reaches Mr B's London exchange then it hits the Sky equipment and is sent via OR lines to Mr B's home.
However, I'm not clear of what happens between Mr A's exchange and Mr B's. My assumption is that it goes out onto main line connections and probably some exchange(s) between Mr A's Manchester exchange and Mr B's London exchange. Therefore it is utilising a deal of equipment and lines that is not necessarily the ownership of Sky. That's my assumption but might not be correct.You say you are not an expert in how the calls are managed, but in mordern networks , in simple terms the 'transmit' and 'recieve' paths are separate , so it's entirely possible to have a situation where only one party can hear the other , but the call stays 'connected' ,
Well I did ask about that as my understanding was that the line to the exchange was made up of twisted pair. My understanding was that send and receive were using two different physical cables which made me think that the transmit cable (from me to exchange) was someway faulty - hence people at the other end have trouble hearing me (transmit) but I can hear them fine (receive).
However, the last engineer did say that it was a single wire using frequency modulation to transmit and receive. My understanding of that is that the voice data is carried along the same physical line on different modulation frequencies for transmit and receive. If thats the case then effectively the incoming and outgoing voice is going along exactly the same wire and the same connections, ruling out my theory of the twisted pair send and receive different physical wires.
Again, I'm not clear exactly how the voice data is transmitted over the lines.You may have a point that if the problem is a network problem wouldn't it affect other people, but how can you know if other people are being affected or not ?,
I can't know for sure but all the OR engineers and Sky engineers have not heard of a similar problem. Some have had some very unique problems that they eventually resolved but if it was a problem on the network its likely some form of issue would have been raised elsewhere.
Are the calls affected always to the same person, if so who is their provider, Sky, BT TT,mobile provider ?, do they live locally or some distance away or are the affected calls from various people and spread over many different providers ?
Yes and I have fed back it is a totally random problem in terms of who it affects. Not the same people all the time, family members, call centres, banks, councils etc etc.0 -
I'm not sure if we have different understandings of the term 'network'. I understand the point you are making but don't have the logical sequencing you are referring to. So, if a call is made by Mr A in Manchester to Mr B in London, both with Sky, then the call would go to Mr A's exchange and hit the Sky equipment in that exchange. It then is routed via physical cabling to Mr B's London exchange. Once it reaches Mr B's London exchange then it hits the Sky equipment and is sent via OR lines to Mr B's home.
However, I'm not clear of what happens between Mr A's exchange and Mr B's. My assumption is that it goes out onto main line connections and probably some exchange(s) between Mr A's Manchester exchange and Mr B's London exchange. Therefore it is utilising a deal of equipment and lines that is not necessarily the ownership of Sky. That's my assumption but might not be correct.
Well I did ask about that as my understanding was that the line to the exchange was made up of twisted pair. My understanding was that send and receive were using two different physical cables which made me think that the transmit cable (from me to exchange) was someway faulty - hence people at the other end have trouble hearing me (transmit) but I can hear them fine (receive).
However, the last engineer did say that it was a single wire using frequency modulation to transmit and receive. My understanding of that is that the voice data is carried along the same physical line on different modulation frequencies for transmit and receive. If thats the case then effectively the incoming and outgoing voice is going along exactly the same wire and the same connections, ruling out my theory of the twisted pair send and receive different physical wires.
Again, I'm not clear exactly how the voice data is transmitted over the lines.
I can't know for sure but all the OR engineers and Sky engineers have not heard of a similar problem. Some have had some very unique problems that they eventually resolved but if it was a problem on the network its likely some form of issue would have been raised elsewhere.
Yes and I have fed back it is a totally random problem in terms of who it affects. Not the same people all the time, family members, call centres, banks, councils etc etc.
Again in simple terms if you consider the Openreach cable (1 twisted pair of wires) carries an analogue signal to the exchange from your house , so it's transmit and receive at the same time, once at the exchange ( a bit of an incorrect term when TT and Sky are the provider , should be a 'node') the call is in effect turned into a data stream ,a digital signal, this is done on Sky's equipment, at the far destination , in your example also Sky it's converted back to an analogue signal and sent down the copper pair to the called party's phone...the bit in the middle could be any number of company's, may be a BT wholesale circuit, could be cable &wireless,could be Sky's own circuit ,could be many others, but in a way this doesn't matter, because Sky are the owner/renter and are responsible from your point of view for ensuring it's performance
now if we assume the problem is in Sky 'network' which in this case is everything apart from the OR cables from the exchanges to the called and calling party's houses, if you switched to say TT , you would be on a different providers network and any 'leased lines' between the 2 'exchanges' would probably not be the same as the Sky's leased lines , so if the problem remained, then it presumably was on OR all the time, but if you no longer had the issue, you have proved the defect into Sky's network, it may seen drastic to change from Sky, to try localising the problem yourself, but if all they ever do is send OR out, how will the problem ever be found ( again assuming it's in Sky's network)
Sorry to bang on, but my original point was with your statement that changing provider would be pointless, if you get nowhere with Sky resolving the problem and it's really a problem you could do without I don't see you have much choice, and if you did switch to another provider (TT , BT , or whoever)should the problem remain you know it's OR, if it disappears you know it was Sky, at the moment no one knows, and if you did switch and the problem remained you have more info to get your new provider to chase Openreach, and you could always switch back, and if the problem goes away with your new provider happy days, no more one way transmission0 -
Again in simple terms if you consider the Openreach cable (1 twisted pair of wires) carries an analogue signal to the exchange from your house , so it's transmit and receive at the same time,
Yes but is it transmit and receive on the same physical wire via frequency modulation or is it transmit and receive via two distinct physical wires i.e. one for transmit and the other for receieve?if you did switch to another provider (TT , BT , or whoever)should the problem remain you know it's OR, if it disappears you know it was Sky, at the moment no one knows, and if you did switch and the problem remained you have more info to get your new provider to chase Openreach
I don't disagree with what you are saying - effectively if I switch then either the problem disappears or remains. If it remains then it narrows it down to OR - however, the new provider is not going to take this on board. The new provider would, quite rightly, say that problem was there before you joined us so they wont pay OR to solve an issue that was pre-existing before I joined.
If the problem disappeared then as you say it would be a Sky network problem - however, the frequency of the problem, albeit intermittent is near daily. If the fault was on the Sky network then they would have other reports of this problem - they say there are none. It would be easier if there was because they would have something to compare. So while it is possible that it is on the Sky network its very remote - and if I jump ship to another provider then the new provider not take on the problem but Sky would not take me back either - thus I would then be completely without any way forward. As it is, it is Sky's responsibility even if it is on their network.0 -
Yes but is it transmit and receive on the same physical wire via frequency modulation or is it transmit and receive via two distinct physical wires i.e. one for transmit and the other for receieve?
I don't disagree with what you are saying - effectively if I switch then either the problem disappears or remains. If it remains then it narrows it down to OR - however, the new provider is not going to take this on board. The new provider would, quite rightly, say that problem was there before you joined us so they wont pay OR to solve an issue that was pre-existing before I joined.
If the problem disappeared then as you say it would be a Sky network problem - however, the frequency of the problem, albeit intermittent is near daily. If the fault was on the Sky network then they would have other reports of this problem - they say there are none. It would be easier if there was because they would have something to compare. So while it is possible that it is on the Sky network its very remote - and if I jump ship to another provider then the new provider not take on the problem but Sky would not take me back either - thus I would then be completely without any way forward. As it is, it is Sky's responsibility even if it is on their network.
If you really don't want to change provider , then all you can do is keep on at Sky, even if the problem is on Openreach's cable, they as your supplier need to keep reporting it to OR but if they keep sending OR out to find no problem with OR's cables then what ?, what if they (Sky) have mis-diagnosed the problem and are looking for the problem in the wrong place, OR cannot fix problems in Sky's network.
Sky (and you ) are convinced the problem is with OR, but what if it isn't, what if it's on Sky's network/equipment ?
Sky or anyone else who 'rent' an OR cable pair (BT Retail, TT , Plusnet , whoever) don't pay for repairs to OR's cables, it's included in the £9 a month Sky pay to rent the line
You have evidence of OR investigations and attempts to solve your problem ,but the problem remains, and the only evidence of Sky doing any investigation of their network is verbal, presumably they have said something like 'oh, we have checked ,nothing wrong at our end', perhaps they have checked, perhaps they only said they checked but didn't, it's probable that the people who answer the phone at Sky repair centre have little or no telecom engineering experience , not a criticism , it's probably the same with any retailer of telecom services, you rarely speak to an engineer, and even if you did speak to a 'senior manager' do they have any real experience
Personally I think the issue is within Sky's network, and unless by chance they discover a problem with their equipment, maybe routine maintenance , maybe another customer complaint investigated thoroughly ,your problem unlikely to just disappear , while Sky concentrate on the no cost option of getting OR to check the line.
It's only my opinion , but your problem is not likely to be resolved by sending OR out to check time and again, the same things,
You don't need to get hung up on 2 pairs , transmit and receive etc..there is only 1 pair to your house, the part within the 'exchange' and the exchange to exchange 'path' is very complicated , but you can consider it as 2 virtual paths, 1 for transmit and 1 for receive, even this matches better with the description of your problem, an error with transmit path , from your perspective, would result in you hearing them but them not hearing you, these virtual paths are not always the same, so could explain the intermittent nature of the problem, that's why I think it's 'network' not cables where the problem is...also one of your comments was the engineers you have spoken to, Sky and OR ?, have never seem a problem like this, this surprises me, because although far from common, it's certainly not unique0 -
..also one of your comments was the engineers you have spoken to, Sky and OR ?, have never seem a problem like this, this surprises me, because although far from common, it's certainly not unique
The ones I have spoken to have not come across this particular problem before.
If you know of any references to this particular problem I would be more than interested.0
This discussion has been closed.
Confirm your email address to Create Threads and Reply
Categories
- All Categories
- 353.6K Banking & Borrowing
- 254.2K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
- 455.1K Spending & Discounts
- 246.6K Work, Benefits & Business
- 603K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
- 178.1K Life & Family
- 260.7K Travel & Transport
- 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
- 16K Discuss & Feedback
- 37.7K Read-Only Boards