UKPC notice to keeper received. newbie help please!

simplicity

Hi all,

I received a Notice to Keeper for "not parking correctly within the markings or space". It happened in a UKPC carpark in London's Leyton Mill retail car park.

I used to hear that you should ignore all private pcn's but i did some googling in the last few days and the consensus seems to have changed. On this occasion I must admit I stupidly parked in what wasn't a bay, I did not realise this at the time. It gets dark at this time of year early afternoon and it was raining so I made a mistake.

The 14 day early discount is no longer being offered so I'd have to pay £90! I'd like to contest this if you kind people think I have a case here.

Please let me know if I should give you guys more info and point me towards a template please. Thanks in advance.

Redx

just read and follow the NEWBIES sticky thread, just above this thread, below the green banner

no need to google, just check recent threads and the sticky threads here, the rules changed in oct 2012 so nearly 2.5 years ago

simplicity

I did read the thread, however in the template letter it states:

b)... keeper I believe that the signs were not seen, the wording is ambiguous and the predominant purpose of your business model is intended to be a deterrent.

I have revisited the site and the signs are actually fine. Do I still copy and paste the same template?

Apologies if these are deemed as stupid questions. Have never really dealt with this before.

Redx

the signs are unlikely to be "fine"

the signage has to conform to the industry standards, normally the BPA CoP standards, so I doubt that YOU are sufficiently qualified to be an expert witness in stating that those signs are "fine"

they may be "fine" to you, but may not meet the correct contractual industry standards, they rarely do, so I doubt that they are up to spec, especially not the BPA spec on colours and clarity etc , therefore you query them anyway

it isnt about what YOU think, you challenge them to put forward all of their evidence, in which case you query everything and accept nothing, hence the template letter which queries everything and accepts nothing

TDA

Redx wrote: »

the signage has to conform to the industry standards, normally the BPA CoP standards, so I doubt that YOU are sufficiently qualified to be an expert witness in stating that those signs are "fine"

Eaaaasy chuck.. Bit aggressive no? The guy was just saying signage didn't seem to be a massive issue at this site.

The only colour requirement I am aware of regarding signage in the BPA Code of Practice is that there must be sufficient contrast between the text and the background, preferably through the use of black text on a white background.

The BPA guidelines on signage are hardly onerous to comply with.

In any event there's nothing to lose by submitting the full template. Even if one area of the appeal bears no relevance, so long as one of the others does the adjudicator will find for the appellant on that basis. GPEOL is the clear killer at POPLA currently. Signage significantly less so.

simplicity

TDA thanks. Good to know I should just submit the full template.

To REDX, goodness can you hear yourself speak. Read what you wrote back and see how you come across. I'm just a woman trying to work this out for the first time, I never claimed to be an expert. I was self deprecating, acknowledged how my questions might be seen as silly. I do wonder why people like you are drawn to these board with so much pent up frustration.

Redx

its factual, not aggressive

I believe you should be given the facts and not be trusting or accepting of the fools at these companies nor what they have written on their signs

accept nothing - question everything - basic rule

people have slaved over getting the template right , so just use it , dont assume you know better than them and start omitting legal queries or arguments just because of "what you think"

the golden rules are to to mention not a gpeol , poor signage , no contract, those concepts never waver unless its a contractual charge backed up with vat receipts and then maybe the challenge changes

most people who come on here know nothing about it, so the point of the newbies thread is to tell "newbies" what to do, including spelling it all out for them, people who deviate from that well trodden path get told in plain terms why their assumptions are wrong, to deter them from making things worse or leaving stuff out, to make them sit up and take notice , plus anybody else that reads the thread and thinks the same thing

I spell it out, warts and everything , not interested in making friends , its not facebook, its a forum , so if your query was about broadband you would be told the facts and told off about assumptions, no different , so I dont care how it "reads back" because its not personal

other people will read this thread and may think that the signage is "fine" unless we spell it out why it isnt, that way EVERYBODY reading this will see it refuted, not just the OP, so you need to remember that somebody reading this in a few months time also needs "putting off" thinking the signage is "fine" too

I doubt that ANY SIGN put up by UKPC conforms to the BPA CoP nor any laws like the Unfair Contracts law (recently amended)

if you read this thread here https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5049715 you will see that fergie has taken the trust and apcoa to task over their signage and they have had to make a few changes already, just one of many issues he has had with that hospital site and apcoa

or this one in post #12 talking about MSA signage https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5131068

prankster signage blogs

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/parking-quiz-unclear-signage.html

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/ukcps-claim-dismissed-judge-rules_14.html

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/picture-of-week-abersoch-beach-car-park.html

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/picture-of-week-is-this-why-parkingeye.html

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/waiting-for-space-is-not-parking.html

so my comments are aimed at EVERYBODY that reads this thread, not just this OP , as I try to ensure that the thread is relevant to ANYONE reading it

there is far more to signage than the colours of the fonts and the background , a lot more, including the amount of information to be taken in , lighting , how many signs there should be ? , what should be on the sign and why ? , how high the sign should be ? , which way it should be facing ? , is it on the entrance so people can read it before crossing the threshold ? , - its a whole subject in itself which is why Excel have changed the signage at least 3 times at the Peel Centre , Stockport in the last few years (because it is a major issue and comes up a lot in court , still is as far as the Peel Centre is concerned)

they rely on the signage to try to form the contract, so its extremely relevant as it is what start the contractual process in the first place , leading to the pcn to be issued

look back at my posts and you will see they are all the same, no frills , tell it like it is, plus they have saved members thousands of pounds in parking charge invoice cancellations or successful appeals, especially against Excel at the Peel Centre as well as against p*rking lie and apc*a too

I have taken a keen interest in the signage at the Peel Centre in Stockport ever since it was on watchdog and the fact that they have changed it several times to try to conform means its one of the better signed sites than most of the others , in some cases excel and vcs mix up the info on their signs so that you cannot tell which company it is , or the paperwork doesnt match the signs , parking prankster has blogged a lot about signage, including robin hood as wll as the peel centre and others

other places like fistral beach have had cases won on "signage" too (see ivor pecheque posts)

I have more "thanks" against my name than posts, so indicative of what the vast majority who read them think , you will find most regular posters that dish out the facts here have a similar posts to thanks ratio and are uncompromising in their posts

better than giving out lies, half truths or mixed messages, I leave that to the parking companies and their silly signs that you are supposed to read and digest at 30 mph because if you stop, your "done"

you can be assured that my only interest is to ensure that UKPC do not receive a penny, nor any of the other companies who act in this manner, and always has been since they tried to fleece 2 of my relatives

my initial post#2 told this OP what to do, in simple terms , nothing more to be done other than say "thank you redx, I will do exactly what you said in your first reply"

SevenTowers

Redx is a trusted poster, dedicated to fighting the parking scammers. Just think of it as "tough love", he really is on your side, you would be well advised to follow his directions.

fisherjim

simplicity, I have never seen a UKPC car park where the signs conform, follow the regulars on here they know what they are talking about.