Sacked

Another_not_new_user

Undervalued wrote: »

Thanks for confirming the jurisdiction.

Before fees were payable for employment tribunals, this would almost certainly have been one of those cases that would have been settled. Most employers would have felt it was not worth the time and expense of defending.

As you say, if the OP's son has to pay full fees it probably rules out making a claim. However, it may be worth reading the following document to see if he can claim a remission.......

http://hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex160a-from-07-october-eng.pdf

Yes, perhaps. But remember, the landscape of employment tribunals has changed massively. He might get a costs award against him if he loses. And he also might win and lose the lot for his contribution to his dismissal. All these things are becoming more common. These days, the gamble is greater, and one has to consider whether the risk is worth it. In the case of a few weeks wages, that is a great gamble - and of course if he doesn't get fee remission these things can still happen, so he could lose a lot more.


He'd have to claim for wrongful dismissal, and it would, of course, have to go to ACAS for pre-claim conciliation first. Which may get him a result or not. But equally, his reference isn't getting any better....


Only he can decide if that is worth the effort.

chris73

Funny as the company were full of praise for the work he did for them ( it ) until they employed a new manager

In which case I would be going cap in hand to ask for a reference for the work which I did for the times when I was on time and awake. Yes, he has been sacked for Gross Misconduct, but he hasn't stolen anything or punched anybody so its not the worst reason for getting rid of him, so he could ask for a reference purely covering his work skills based on the Job which he did. If they are truly happy with the standard of his work, then that shouldn't really be an issue or up for further debate.

The crux of the matter is that, however you dress it up, your son is going to find it very difficult to find work as it is with having being dismissed for Gross Misconduct by his previous employer, however without any form of reference whatsoever, its going to be even harder. If he can accept what he did was wrong and negotiate a written reference (Doesn't have to be from a particular manager) for the work that he did, then it will go a long way to smoothing his way into a similar role elsewhere and may be the difference between a future employer giving him a second chance based on his skills or "recycling" his application form without even granting an interview.

On this basis, a reference could be a hell of a lot more valuable in the longer term than a months notice, especially as the chances of a tribunal don't especially look good. However they are unlikely to even consider a reference of any sort, if he is causing trouble for them, and that stuff follows you around for a long time.

This is the part of life where he learns about learning from his mistakes and damage limitation.

Its your choice but choose wisely eh!

missile

Are you sure your son was not given a verbal warning(s)? Perhaps he is being economical with the truth?


It would seem strange if he was not reprimanded for persistent lateness and when he was awoken from his slumber.

Undervalued

chris73 wrote: »

On this basis, a reference could be a hell of a lot more valuable in the longer term than a months notice, especially as the chances of a tribunal don't especially look good. However they are unlikely to even consider a reference of any sort, if he is causing trouble for them, and that stuff follows you around for a long time.

I agree except that sometimes the threat of a tribunal claim can be the best (or only) way of extracting a reference.

A tribunal can't order them to provide a reference so if it ends up there the best he is going to get is a month's wages. However, as I said earlier, defending a claim will cost them money and time so they may well agree a settlement. ACAS will try to obtain a settlement and I'd be surprised if it got any further than that point.

I also agree that a binding agreement to provide a reference would be far more valuable than the disputed wages.

awolo1

He fell asleep and was late to work. I wouldn't want somebody in my team who did this. Gross misconduct is not defined and can mean a plethora of different things.

Undervalued

awolo1 wrote: »

Gross misconduct is not defined and can mean a plethora of different things.

Frequently yes.

However, in this case it seems the firm have defined this behaviour as simply "misconduct" and then not applied their own rules.

I agree, it is a technical point but one that could, just possibly, be used to the OP's son's advantage.

Certainly in the pre fee days it would have been well worth filing a claim if only to extract a settlement with an agreed reference.

TheGardener

A letter to the management/owner taking responsibility for his actions and apologising for the impact of those actions would be a start...I think the best he can hope for from this is some sort of agreement that they wont kill his chances with a new employer if they seek independent references.
Call me old fashioned but...trying to hang the employer for owed wages because they made a technical mistake in the process of dealing with unacceptable behaviour that is not being denied, seems pedantic in the extreme...

citykid5

TheGardener wrote: »

A letter to the management/owner taking responsibility for his actions and apologising for the impact of those actions would be a start...I think the best he can hope for from this is some sort of agreement that they wont kill his chances with a new employer if they seek independent references.
Call me old fashioned but...trying to hang the employer for owed wages because they made a technical mistake in the process of dealing with unacceptable behaviour that is not being denied, seems pedantic in the extreme...

I don't believe it was a technical mistake as if it were the could of overturned it at appeal, but didnt