condensation resulting in mould growth in rental property

Doozergirl

pd001 wrote: »

Agree with opening up the fireplace..

There is no fan assisted extraction in either the bathroom or the kitchen. We'll work on the bathroom first on that one.

Already dealt with the loft access, she will get a quote next week for that one.

She will do everything practically possible to help her tenant. But in return she needs the tenant to do their part.

No extractors at all? You really can't blame the tenants, especially not a family!

There is reason why building regulations demand extraction in those rooms. Perhaps not when this house was built, but for a very long time now. This is the key problem.

Doozergirl

Thank you for your opinion, Richard. As a property professional I have a great amount of experience of most things building related.

I criticised them for being physically ugly. I gave several possible solutions before calling PIV ugly and expensive and at no time did I suggest leaving it and have water running down the walls. In fact, I go so far as to say that by doing what I do for a living and asking the correct questions, we've found that the problem is that this house has no mechanical extraction to speak of and would most likely benefit best from having timed mechanical extraction in the appropriate areas, like most of those without condensation problems do.

Diagnose first. PIV is really a last attempt, IMO. Operating an old house sensitively should be the priority.

sniggings

pd001 wrote: »

I did mention that when the house is empty, there is no damp or mould at all. Surely therefore mould that grows when the house is occupied is down to the tenant not ventilating it correctly?
Isn't that scenario plausible?

I will ensure that my daughter glues the trickle vents open. That should certainly help with airflow.

The current tenant is actually a decent tenant, which is why my daughter bought them a brand new dehumidifier.
Surely if they were using the dehumidifier as intended then they wouldn't have a mould problem on the window sill?
Another plausible scenario?

I use a dehumidifier in the upstairs of my own house and it appears to work for me.
Therefore it should work for my daughters tenant. Wouldn't you agree?

of course someone living in a sealed box will cause problems, not sure what different scenarios have to do with this.

The empty house didn't produce the moisture needed for mould.

I was making the point, you consider this a problem caused by the tenant, just because they are a tenant, as if they are doing something so different to the thousands that have this problem, rather then just a problem with the way some modern houses are made.

Why you talk of scenarios beats me, you need to find out the problem and fix it...and a clue it's not because the house has a tenant in it.

A dehumidifier well help, but it sounds to me as this is more a house build problem, as the dehumidifier will only remove so much moisture from one room, they are not very good at removing moisture from the whole house, and they are slow, the next day the moisture will be back.

As has been suggested, extractor fans in kitchen and bathroom, a cookhood, would do more than a tube of superglue, but that suggestion sounds about right for someone that sees this as a tenant problem rather than a modern living problem, just don't expect your glue to solve this, but then I guess it will reassure you that you were right and the lovely tenant is the problem, as the real solution would mean spending some of that lovely rent money on fixing the real problem.

pd001

sniggings wrote: »

of course someone living in a sealed box will cause problems, not sure what different scenarios have to do with this.

The empty house didn't produce the moisture needed for mould.

I was making the point, you consider this a problem caused by the tenant, just because they are a tenant, as if they are doing something so different to the thousands that have this problem, rather then just a problem with the way some modern houses are made.

Why you talk of scenarios beats me, you need to find out the problem and fix it...and a clue it's not because the house has a tenant in it.

A dehumidifier well help, but it sounds to me as this is more a house build problem, as the dehumidifier will only remove so much moisture from one room, they are not very good at removing moisture from the whole house, and they are slow, the next day the moisture will be back.

As has been suggested, extractor fans in kitchen and bathroom, a cookhood, would do more than a tube of superglue, but that suggestion sounds about right for someone that sees this as a tenant problem rather than a modern living problem, just don't expect your glue to solve this, but then I guess it will reassure you that you were right and the lovely tenant is the problem, as the real solution would mean spending some of that lovely rent money on fixing the real problem.

I think that I have already answered most of the points that you raise.
My daughter will work with her tenant, not against them, and she is indeed prepared to spend some, if not all of "that lovely rent" as you so eloquently put it.

The loft access will be widened, (paid for) and the loft duly insulated (not paid for).
An extractor fan will be installed in the bathroom first, and maybe the kitchen in the very near future.

For everyone's information, the cooker hood does not ventilate to the outside. So a suitable extractor fan will be installed in the kitchen as detailed above, but only after the loft and the bathroom have been deal with.

I have advised her that when the above jobs have been finished that she should remove her dehumidifier from the house because, by the sound of things, it will not be needed and in any event is probably not being used.

The fireplace will not be opened up at this stage.

That ll be it for the time being. Only time will tell if the actions detailed above will help.
As I have mentioned, she also needs the tenant to play their part.

I will keep updating this thread as and when she gets quotes/completes jobs

richardc1983

sniggings wrote: »

you make a tenant sound as some kind of subspecies! the fact is all kinds of people have problems with this issue, you just need to read the threads on here.

Stop thinking it's the tenants fault and just try and solve the problem would probably get better results.

90% of the time it is the tenants fault. Most condensation and damp problems come from the tennants or occupiers behaviours inside. Eg drying washing on radiators, never opening windows when cooking or showering etc etc.

richardc1983

Doozergirl wrote: »

A thing of beauty?
http://www.nuaire.co.uk/products/catalogue/residential/positive-input-ventilation-piv/drimaster-heat/

If I have money to spend, should I have a plastic plate on my ceiling or should I put in a lovely new open fire where I can reinstate vital ventilation that should be there in the first place?

A plastic plate that costs me money or an open fire where I can burn free fuel for heat, if I want to?

Disagree with you, your speaking from personal preference. A tenant is not likely to appreciate a lovely nice open fire and with houses being sealed up like boxes and double glazing etc this isn't necessarily going to resolve the issue entirely. It will help but not much.

richardc1983

pd001 wrote: »

I did mention that when the house is empty, there is no damp or mould at all. Surely therefore mould that grows when the house is occupied is down to the tenant not ventilating it correctly?
Isn't that scenario plausible?

I will ensure that my daughter glues the trickle vents open. That should certainly help with airflow.

The current tenant is actually a decent tenant, which is why my daughter bought them a brand new dehumidifier.
Surely if they were using the dehumidifier as intended then they wouldn't have a mould problem on the window sill?
Another plausible scenario?

I use a dehumidifier in the upstairs of my own house and it appears to work for me.
Therefore it should work for my daughters tenant. Wouldn't you agree?

Dehumidifier costs a lot to buy, they also cost a lot to run and they will be paying that cost. Perhaps they are using it but dehumidifiers dont really resolve the issue apart from the room its in. They just recycle air, you need FRESH air!

richardc1983

pd001 wrote: »

Agree with opening up the fireplace..

There is no fan assisted extraction in either the bathroom or the kitchen. We'll work on the bathroom first on that one.

Already dealt with the loft access, she will get a quote next week for that one.

She will do everything practically possible to help her tenant. But in return she needs the tenant to do their part.

Not plugging another manufacturer product but again I cant not share my experiences (positive ones) with others when I spent so much time looking up resolutions.

Dont go for a cheap extractor fan they are rubbish and do not work. We had one and it was on a timer and whether it was on for 20mins or 50 mins after showering the walls were still running with condensation and we had black mould growing. We since have changed the fan to a http://www.nuaire.co.uk/products/catalogue/residential/extract-fans/cyfan/ which is a centrifugal fan. It also runs in trickle mode if you want it to, it moves that much air that there is no steam in the bathroom and just a little condensation on mirrors afterwards which clears within 5 mins. Its set to run for 10 mins after showering but as we have the drimaster we dont use it on trickle as there is constant air movement out of the extractor fan due to the positive pressure ventilation effect.

You could also go for one of these http://www.amazon.co.uk/MANROSE-MF100T-IN-LINE-EXTRACTOR-MIXEDFLOW/dp/B005F41YOM/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1420156267&sr=8-6&keywords=extractor+fan which would be installed in the ceiling above the bathroom and extract air from the bathroom via a small vent in the ceiling to the outside via ducting. These have similar air flow rates to the CYFAN linked above. The CYFAN may be easier to fit/setup for you though?

pd001

richardc1983 wrote: »

The drimaster does work and is very effective... if you do a search there's various posts on them heres one - https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4178333
and a detailed review from marmitemayhem who is on the forum and also has one... this is one that I also appreciated reading through the vast ammounts of information when deciding on whether the drimaster would be right for me.

http://www.drimaster-piv-condensation-system.co.uk/

They are certainly not an ugly way of combating it. Whats worse damp stained walls and ceiling or a white plastic vent in your landing ceiling. Less space is taken up than a dehumidifier by having a vent in the landing ceiling. It costs less to buy than a dehumidifier, less to run and does the whole house rather than perhaps one room.

If you check out amazon there are many positive reviews for the drimaster (the brand) and the product is part of a solution called positive pressure ventilation.

"I used this analogy on another thread... The analogy I use is this; in your car when your windows are misted up in winter if you use the recirculating option and heating on with full fan speed you will not clear the windows at all in fact it will make it worse as there is no air changes, turn the air con (dehumidifier) on with the recirculating option on this will help to clear as the air con dries the air however if you turn recirc off so fresh air comes into the car and is heated up by the Heater the windows will clear very quickly. This is because cold air holds less moisture so this enables the surrounding surfaces with air circulating to in effect collect the moisture in the air.. This air then finds it way out of the car by the blowers being on and is replaced by more fresh dry air. Having the air con as well just makes it even quicker but you need fresh air."

I don't work/or associated with Drimaster however I am a very happy customer who has bought the product and is 110% happy with the product and what benefits it brings. What annoys and frustrates me is people coming onto a thread without having done any research about a product that clearly is proven to work and rubbishing it without having tried it out themselves. Read what information you can find whether for or against something and then make your own informed decision.

Hello Richard,
I have read many of your posts regarding the Drimaster system. I came across them whilst researching the condensation issue for my daughter.
It is an interesting product, which produces hardline views, both for and against.
I/She is undecided, but we are open minded all the same.

As you may have read above, my daughter needs to rectify some other issues before going much further.
We are interested in everyone's point of view.

blackshirtuk

I would check your insurance as mine does not allow/will not pay a claim if there are portable gas heaters in a tenanted property