Dispute over rent payment

jamie11

It was April 2007 that deposits had to be protected by law, also have you had a recent copy of the prescribed information?

oldbaldman

Google "tenant deposit protection" and you will get accurate information on deposit protection. Or rely on really "random posts" from anonymous posters here!

obm

booksurr

oblivion204 wrote: »

I read today that its pre Apr2013, this could be wrong Im not sure about deposits being held

assuming you are not in Scotland, then yes that statement is wrong. Deposits were to be protected by law wef 2007. There was a later tidying up to clarify treatment of deposits taken before that date, but the bottom line is under current law the deposit had to be protected even if originally paid in 2010.

oblivion204 wrote: »

....She signed a letter she typed up (and I did) to state that she was returning my deposit of £500 and the balance owing was £85 to take me to 7th Jan 2015. She worked out the figures rightly or wrongly and as far as I was concerned all was well.
....
Like above, I have the tenancy agreement which says first payment is 21st Feb and an additional letter from her to say the balance owed is now £85. Nothing I can do until after BH but the last thing I will do is give her £650 for nothing

you moved in on 21 Nov 2010 and paid rent monthly, your rental period therefore runs 21st to 20th of each month. You agreed a rent payment date of the 25th

Legally the final period does not have to be apportioned. You did not move out on 20th Dec 2014 so the LL is entitled to be paid £650 whether you leave on 21st Dec or 7th Jan or 20th Jan as you have entered the next rental period expiring in Jan 15
BUT we then note the fact that you and the LL have agreed 7th Jan as the last date and she has offered and you have "accepted" a charge of £85 for that "extension. Therefore legally you have both agreed a "mutual surrender" under the terms set out. That overwrites the rental period and so that is what you must work with

The question is not when was the £1,300 on 1st Feb 2010 banked by her, but rather it is when did you make the next payment. Patently £650 of that £1300 covers the period 21 Feb - 20 March 2010, but, if your next payment was made on 25th Feb 2010 that would put you paying well in advance for the period 21 March - 20 April and so with that pattern on 25th Nov 2014 your "final" payment would cover the period 21 Dec 2014 - 20 Jan 2015 on which basis you do not owe her anything at all and should not have paid the £85 at all. Indeed given you have a mutual surrender agreed at a cost of £85 she actually owes you a refund of £565 as you have overpaid the final period compared to what she has asked for in writing

If on the other hand your "next" rental payment was made on 25th March 2010 then in essence you are paying each month during the month it is due, ie neither in advance nor in arrears. In which case your payment on 25th Nov 2014 took you up to 21st Dec 2014 and you would indeed owe her an "extension" period which you have agreed in writing will cost £85

there is no way that you ever owe her a further £650 (subject to below!)

oblivion204 wrote: »

in writing on 20th November 2014.

you say you "gave" written notice on 20th Nov 2014. Technically speaking it is the date notice was served (ie received not sent) which counts, so if she received it on 20th Nov you have met the legal requirement of providing one rental period's advance notice (ie 21 Nov - 20 Dec) and it would therefore be a valid notice with the termination date of 20th Dec. She has then agreed an extension to 7th Jan

The courts define that where posted first class it is served 2 working days after the date of posting, so if posted on 20th Nov it was served late ie received on 22nd Nov. So if it was received on/after 21 Nov technically you have not given a full rental period notice in advance and so your notice would expire on 20 Jan, which then brings into question the importance of whether your payments on 25th of each month run out in Dec 14 or span over into Jan 15 and so how much, if any, is due for the mutual surrender

IN SUMMARY
- you do not owe her an additional £650
- she has not returned your deposit in full
- it appears she has not protected your deposit so cannot make any deductions from it at all, so she still owes you £150
- if a deposit is not protected you can sue the LL and the court may give you a compensation payment of between 1 - 3 times the value of the deposit.
- if she wants to play hardball over the "missing" rent then threaten her with the deposit rules and penalty, she will lose in court

jjlandlord

booksurr wrote: »

Legally the final period does not have to be apportioned. You did not move out on 20th Dec 2014 so the LL is entitled to be paid £650 whether you leave on 21st Dec or 7th Jan or 20th Jan as you have entered the next rental period expiring in Jan 15

The law is not that "the final period does not have to be apportioned".
The fact that OP did not move out on the 20th Dec. 2014 does not automatically entitle the landlord to the full rent because of the issue of validity of the notice to quit.

booksurr wrote: »

BUT we then note the fact that you and the LL have agreed 7th Jan as the last date and she has offered and you have "accepted" a charge of £85 for that "extension. Therefore legally you have both agreed a "mutual surrender" under the terms set out.

This also depends on the validity of the notice to quit.

booksurr wrote: »

So if it was received on/after 21 Nov technically you have not given a full rental period notice in advance and so your notice would expire on 20 Jan, which then brings into question the importance of whether your payments on 25th of each month run out in Dec 14 or span over into Jan 15 and so how much, if any, is due for the mutual surrender

If the notice is invalid is does not expire on the 20th Jan. It is invalid and has no effect.

oblivion204

Thank you for your responses.

I today had another text from my LL stating that I provided her on 1st Feb 2010 with a months deposit and a months rent.

I can therefore only assume that she has used the first months rent there and then to pay off her mortgage amount and thus when Feb 21st came round I paid my first payment by BACS. If this is the case then like you say she actually owes me money.

If this is true then my LL has done this a complete backwards way around. I moved in on 21st Feb and secondly if she did use my rent to clear up the previous months mortgage payment then she should not have done this. I assume this as she told me she had just given the previous tenant his deposit back and was probably short of money for that month.

These are all assumptions but she should have used the rent I gave her to pay the first months payment as per the tenancy agreement on 21st Feb.
I'm still waiting for our bank statements which may indeed show my actual first payment left our account on 21st March. If this is the case then the first payment I gave her would have been for 21st Feb based on that scenario. If not then what on earth did she do with my money?

If my statement shows I paid £650 on 21st Feb I will want to know what happened to my months rent I gave her in advance.
If my statement shows I paid on 21st March then she can only have used my initial rent in advance on 21st Feb

I have a strong suspicious feeling she used my initial payment to cover from Jan 21st to Feb 21st, then took another payment starting March 21st to cover Feb to March. This is the only logical explanation I can fathom out and it implies that I am paying rent for the month I have just used. Thus come 25th Nov 2014 that payment was for Nov leaving Dec outstanding.

Saying that having just read that last paragraph it makes no sense to me now.

As you suggest I know for certain there was no deposit scheme used. If I keep being bombarded with text I will ask her for the TDS address details informing her that they resolve disputes.

I keep asking myself why did she give me back a deposit if either of the scenarios above are correct. In effect she has given me £500 for nothing ?....and called it a deposit?? You just wouldn't do that. None of it makes sense and part of me wants her to try taking legal action to see how far it reaches.

Pixie5740

Don't respond to her text messages. Write a letter, get proof of postage, asking her to send you a rent statement. Also ask for the details of where your deposit is/was protected.

Then check her rent statement against your bank statements to see if it tallies.

kinger101

Which mortgage payments your rent was used to cover is entirely irrelevant. Your contract was with her, not the bank. The only thing that matters is how much rent have you paid her? Just refer to bank statements, when you get these.

Ordinarily, rent is paid in advance, but your LL seems a bit simple, so it's plausible she asked for it in arrears.

If you can't find any details from the bank, I'd go by what it says in the contract (until LL proves otherwise). I'd also request the deposit back in full, and threaten to sue for non-protection if this does not occur.

oblivion204

I have just re-read some of her text. One text states today that I did indeed pay a months rent up front and a deposit. So that's clear on both sides with no argument.

Another text states the first months rent was used to pay for the month I moved in. So in effect she is stating I moved in in Feb 2010 and at the end of Feb she used that to pay for that month.

So its clear to me that she used it to pay off her existing mortgage payment prior to me actually moving in.

As I see it, when she cashed in the first rent payment is nothing to do with me and I can only stand there and say you should have paid it on 21st Feb to cover to March. This is quite clear on the tenancy agreement where it states the first payment is due on 21st Feb of £650 in advance.

I cant help it if she blatantly used on online version she adopted for her own use. It also states that she is to notify me within 14 days of who the deposit scheme people are......well its almost 4 years 11 months on now and I have heard nothing. .....I wonder why?

kinger101

oblivion204 wrote: »

I have just re-read some of her text. One text states today that I did indeed pay a months rent up front and a deposit. So that's clear on both sides with no argument.

[STRIKE]Another text states the first months rent was used to pay for the month I moved in. So in effect she is stating I moved in in Feb 2010 and at the end of Feb she used that to pay for that month.

So its clear to me that she used it to pay off her existing mortgage payment prior to me actually moving in.[/STRIKE]This is not relevant. STOP talking about it! You're only muddying the waters by bringing mortgage payments into the discussion.

As I see it, when she cashed in the first rent payment is nothing to do with me and I can only stand there and say you should have paid it on 21st Feb to cover to March. This is quite clear on the tenancy agreement where it states the first payment is due on 21st Feb of £650 in advance. No, on the 21st of February, you paid rent to cover the period from 21st Feb to 20th March. It does not cover "March".

I cant help it if she blatantly used on online version she adopted for her own use. It also states that she is to notify me within 14 days of who the deposit scheme people are......well its almost 4 years 11 months on now and I have heard nothing. .....I wonder why?

Just trying to clarify a few things; you're making this much more confusing than it needs to be!

oblivion204

I see what you're saying and I did mean from 21st feb to 20th March.

I suppose I just wanted to leave this property with nothing hanging over my head or to worry about. I'm just frustrated this has happened and its stressing my pregnant wife out. If it continues with the text messages I shall just end them politely with a small warning to stop texting me.

Thanks all for your input by the way, you have all been very helpful.