supplier refuses to bill on meter readings

MyDogMuppet

Please please read the post. Don't put your own spin on it and reply to the question I never asked.

1. I am being surcharged 120% over actual usage.
2. No Energy companies T&C's override their statutory obligations. See The Gas Licence s.27 provisions.
3. With 400,000 customers I could project what someone's annual energy costs would be +/-10% from 3-6 months actual figures, all other things being equal. It is not rocket science. It is basic statistics...if you have the data.
4. The Energy Ombudsman does deal with breaches of licence conditions. Consumer or not. The Ombudsman Services for Utilities does not.
5. My monthly KwH run rate is 250-270 pm for six months. An eco house is very energy efficient. EPC=A. No gas, communal boiler wood chip hot water, no heating in house but Vallox mechanical heat exchanger. 2x fridge freezer, 1 x oven, 1 x washing m. 1 x dwasher. 1x mwave. LED lights. That's it.
6. I do not want to 'save with Ovo' by building up a credit balance.
7. What other industry can you think of where, in a free market, you pay in advance for consumption ?
8. The Utilities Ombudsman agrees with me; not with Ovo's current EAC Direct Debit overcharging practices. I await Ovo's response to his formal letter.
9. Of course Ovo could render their shabby commercial practices redundant by Smart metering. Who knows the regulator might even make them pass the cost savings of not employing meter readers to the consumer.
10. If you think that T&Cs are a get-out have a good read of The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and related case law.

NOW....the question I asked WAS...

Where are the statutory Electricity Suppliers Licence conditions pertaining to charging customers ? (please)

energyworker

MyDogMuppet wrote: »

8. The Utilities Ombudsman agrees with me; not with Ovo's current EAC Direct Debit overcharging practices. I await Ovo's response to his formal letter.
9. Of course Ovo could render their shabby commercial practices redundant by Smart metering. Who knows the regulator might even make them pass the cost savings of not employing meter readers to the consumer.

Can I ask what the ombudsman has said to you? Purely because based on what you seem to be saying the entire energy industry will be having to change its way of doing things shortly based on your complaint, I'm intrigued.

There is currently no obligation for companies to provide smart meters, there is currently government legislation in place targeting standardising smart meters and having them fully in place by 2020. Energy companies are currently compelled to read meters ever 28-24 months dependent on circumstances.

MyDogMuppet

Cardew wrote: »

That 3,200kWh is not for an all electric property.


Indeed how can Ofgem give a average figure for heating/hot water for a bedsit or a 8 bed mansion.


As indicated above, it is not mandatory that you join OVO if you don't like their terms and conditions.


In any case paying an initially higher DD doesn't mean you pay more as your DD will be adjusted as your consumption pattern becomes clearer over the first 12 months and you should pay no more than your annual bill.

Try this ----

1. Eco house has no gas.
2. All hot water via communal wood pellet boilers.
3. The house has no direct heating. Passivhaus.
4. EPC = A

ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/decisions/tdcv_decision_letter_final_2.pdf

System

With respect, you do not need the advice of lay people: you need the advice of a solicitor if you intend to take this further. If you are so upset with OVO, then the simplest dispute resolution would be for you to ask them to waive the £30 exit fee and then move supplier. FWiW, their ts and cs clearly state that they pay for energy in advance of supply and they are able to offer low prices by asking customers to pay in advance. I see nothing wrong with this policy.

Time to get my coat.

Ps. I pay for my phone rental and broadband a month in advance.

MyDogMuppet

energyworker wrote: »

Can I ask what the ombudsman has said to you? Purely because based on what you seem to be saying the entire energy industry will be having to change its way of doing things shortly based on your complaint, I'm intrigued.

There is currently no obligation for companies to provide smart meters, there is currently government legislation in place targeting standardising smart meters and having them fully in place by 2020. Energy companies are currently compelled to read meters ever 28-24 months dependent on circumstances.

I will put the Ombudsman's letter up here. After the deadlock letter, he has said to me 3 weeks ago (verbally) that it is not equitable to use an estimated basis of consumption (EAC) over actual figures. Moreover, Ovo have refused to explain the surcharge (very black mark Ovo) or better justify their surcharge over figures that show actual usage. Ovo's staff didn't even know what that the EAC was.
Deus ex machina.
He has written to Ovo setting out my/our views with his proposed resolution.


Smart Meters have been abandoned in Germany. Flawed project.
I guess Smart Meters are just a tool to enable ALL customers to be billed on a monthly basis. Unless of course, they find a way to charge you more. In which case....

If I've got to go via my MP to get to Matthew Hancock and the Public Accounts Committee... I will.

MyDogMuppet

I'm still looking at whether payments for usage in advance are Security Deposits within the meaning of the Act but until then I think Ovo are going to be undertaking a serious review of their commercial practices.

Electricity Act 1989 as amended to 3-10-2014



1989 Act Condition 21B. Billing based on meter readings


21B.1 If a Customer provides a meter reading to the licensee that the licensee considers
reasonably accurate, or if the Electricity Meter is read by the licensee, the licensee
must take all reasonable steps to reflect the meter reading in the next Bill or
statement of account sent to the Customer.

...


21B.5 The licensee must make available a Bill or statement of account to each of its
Customers at least twice yearly and at least quarterly to any Customer who
requests it or who has Online Account Management.

...


21B.7 Where a Customer requests an explanation of how their Bill or statement of
account was derived the licensee must comply with that request in plain and
intelligible language.


...


21B.9 Where a Customer requests the licensee to make available information on their
energy billing and historical consumption either to the Customer or to any other
person designated by the Customer the licensee must comply with that request to
the extent that the information requested is available and as soon as reasonably
practicable.


...

22.9 Where a Domestic Customer requests the licensee to pass on his Historic
Consumption Data and/or Supply Number either to the Domestic Customer or to
another Electricity Supplier or to any other person, the licensee shall comply with
that request free of charge as soon as reasonably practicable.


...


22B.30 Subject to paragraph 22B.31, the licensee must ensure that all its Tariffs are
available to, and are capable of being entered into by, both new and existing
Domestic Customers.


...



23.3 If, in accordance with the terms of a Domestic Supply Contract with a Domestic
Customer, the licensee:
(a) increases the Charges for the Supply of Electricity to a Domestic Premises
(including by making any reduction in the amount of a Discount that is
applied to a Unit Rate or Standing Charge); or
(b) unilaterally varies any other term of the contract in any other way that is to
the disadvantage of the Domestic Customer ("Disadvantageous Unilateral
Variation") the licensee must give Notice of that increase in the Charges for the Supply of
Electricity or Disadvantageous Unilateral Variation to the Domestic Customer in
accordance with paragraph 23.4.

(h) where the licensee is making a Disadvantageous Unilateral Variation, must
provide the Domestic Customer with a comparison of the term that
currently applies and the new term;
(i) must inform the Domestic Customer of the date the increase in the
Charges for the Supply of Electricity or Disadvantageous Unilateral
Variation has effect;
(j) must inform the Domestic Customer of the main reasons for the increase in
the Charges for the Supply of Electricity and/or the Disadvantageous
Unilateral Variation;

System

I was tempted not to post again until I read the post above. It would seem to me - given what you have posted on this forum - that you are confusing charges and DDs. Surely, a charge is a charge - nothing more and nothing less. You are annoyed because Ovo has set your DD at an unrealistic level but this is not the same as the tariff charge. The bit that I find very difficult to understand is why you think that you are being overcharged?

I gave Ovo my estimated projected usage for gas and electricity. Based on my chosen tariff, they calculated an annual projection and set a monthly DD amount that I agreed with. Based on 6 months usage, MyOvo account shows that I could reduce my monthly payment by £3. Each time (monthly) that I provide them with meter readings, Ovo bills me for the energy used which is deducted from my account balance.

You may well have a complaint against Ovo for the DD amount that has been set; however, I do not see how this relates to charges (your para 23.3)?

I do not believe for a moment that Ovo's commercial practices are in anyway dodgy. The Company's website is easy to understand as are their bills. The 'offer' is pay one monthly DD at the start of the contract and the reason for this is clearly explained (as is the higher DD amount for late season switches), and the Company sits at the top of the MSE and Which customer satisfaction charts.

Why are you so determined to denigrate Ovo's reputation in such a public way?

I should add that I am in no way connected with Ovo, and any issues that I have had with my account have been dealt with professionally by the Ovo team.

pheonix254

MyDogMuppet wrote: »

NOW....the question I asked WAS...

Where are the statutory Electricity Suppliers Licence conditions pertaining to charging customers ? (please)

They are NOT statutory as far as I'm aware. But can be found at https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/licences-codes-and-standards/licences/licence-conditions

specifically:
Electricity Supply Standard Licence Conditions Section 27.
In terms of "credit" where

"Credit" means the amount by which the payments made by a Domestic Customer to the licensee under or in accordance with the relevant Domestic Supply Contract exceeds the total amount of Charges which is due and payable by that Domestic Customer to the licensee under that Domestic Supply Contract.
The folowing is applicable:


27.16 Where any Credit has accumulated under a Domestic Supply Contract and the relevant Domestic Customer requests that the licensee do so, the licensee must, save where it is fair and reasonable in all the circumstances for the licensee not to do so, refund, in a timely manner any Credit which has accumulated under that Domestic Supply Contract to the relevant Domestic Customer. Where the licensee considers that it is fair and reasonable in all the circumstances for it not to refund any Credit which has accumulated under a Domestic Supply Contract in accordance with this provision, it must inform the relevant Domestic Customer of its view and of the reasons for holding that view.


You do seem to be conflating "billing" with your DD payment, and they're not the same. Billing and charges are about you paying for what you use. A direct debit funds an account which the bills and charges come out of - and statute law (and all the law you've posted to this point), as far as I'm aware, deals only with the accuracy and method of charges and billing, and absoutely nothing to do with the nature of the direct debit or the credit you run up in your account.
It should be noted that you can choose to not have a direct debit, and can opt to pay via cash or in advance by a prepayment meter, provided that the supplier suppliers electricity to no fewer than 50,000 Domestic Customers - though you'll probably get a far worse set of tarriffs to choose from.


It's also worth saying that personally as a layman, I don't think that a 120% estimation for your first year is unreasonable, particularly as your usage thus far has been summer rather than winter. Also, your expectations that it is a simple matter of statistics to accurately estimate your usage is also widely optimistic - for instance - the gas price (which affects electricity prices) has fluctued by more than 20% in December alone - so getting an estimated bill for 12 months accurate to +/- 10% is a pretty tall order if you only have 6 months data on your property, which by your own description is a very niche case highly energy efficient property. It's far from easy to do, even with large datasets, and it would be idiotic of an energy company to underestimate, rather than overestimate the costs it would incur, unless you're a big believer of energy companies going bankrupt and leaving their customers out in the cold in the middle of winter because they didn't have enough capital to buy the electricity for you all.

That said -your DD should be reasonable as per their licence agreement as a supplier which I've quoted for you, and if you're in a high amount of credit every month then they should be clearly be refunding you, reducing the DD or giving you a good reason as to why they're not. It sounds like they're having issues here with the latter part, so continue on with the ombudsman. If their argument turns out to be "we can't accurately estimate your winter usage and aren't prepared to change your direct debit to extrapolate from your summer usage, as summer and winter usage are not comparable," I'd argue that this was a good enough reason - But I'm not the ombudsman or a lawyer, so I'll leave it to them.

If you haven't already (and I'm sure you have, but the answers to some of your questions are there) - check out this guide:
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/lower-energy-direct-debits?purge#step1

Good luck with your case with the ombudsman, and keep us updated. Whilst I can see why companies bill you in advance and generally overestimate, I accept that high energy bills do cause major problems for people so if the complaint leads to change which makes things better for consumers, then I'm all for it.

MyDogMuppet

energyworker wrote: »

Can I ask what the ombudsman has said to you? Purely because based on what you seem to be saying the entire energy industry will be having to change its way of doing things shortly based on your complaint, I'm intrigued.

There is currently no obligation for companies to provide smart meters, there is currently government legislation in place targeting standardising smart meters and having them fully in place by 2020. Energy companies are currently compelled to read meters ever 28-24 months dependent on circumstances.

Well here is the text of the Ombudsman Services's instructions to Ovo Energy.

" - provide full information on the estimation process and which industry standard practices and regulations are being followed in this case; and
- adjust the direct debit in accordance with the process "

Now I wait to see what Ovo Energy are going to come up with on this one.

But Ovo's problems are compounding by the day. Ofgem, both Licencing and Consumer Affairs, didnt much like the sound of Ovo Energy billing practices. Not even a little bit. Normally, they don't deal with consumer complaints but where Licensing Regulations are concerned they are remarkably attentive.

I guess the thought of sitting in front of Margaret Hodge's Inquisitor style, steely glare, pointed questioning, with cameras rolling tends to focus the minds of those in the Energy Industry these days.

Bluebirdman_of_Alcathays

MyDogMuppet wrote: »

" - provide full information on the estimation process and which industry standard practices and regulations are being followed in this case; and
- adjust the direct debit in accordance with the process "

1. They're using EAC - an industry wide standard based on known data.

2. They have/are.

I think Margaret Hodge will be waiting a while :cool: