PvG Scheme (Scotland)

maryhilllad

Hi all,

I want to apply to study Nursing at university, unfortunately in my younger days I was convicted of a breach of the peace, and drunk and disorderly (I was 17 years old at the time in 1993) I applied for the BSc Nursing course, after completing the access to nursing course back in 2004, and was told I would have been refused because of these convictions on my disclosure.

I hear about something called the '20/40' rule, where if a petty conviction such as these, automatically is removed from your record if it's over 20 years old, and if it's not over 20 years old, the conviction will be erased when you reach 40 years old. I paid my local police £10 to get access to what records they hold on me, and my record is now clean, but if I am applying for the PvG scheme, do I still have to declare these convictions if there is nothing on my police record? I contacted Disclosure Scotland, and getting told different stories, and I am looking for advice from someone in what to do.

Thanks in advance

pinnit2014

Are you going through the basic, standard or enhanced disclosure? If it is the standard/enhanced disclosure then i think they include the 'spent convictions'....

I'd be surprised if this would affect you're employability chances - they're keen on making sure you're not barred from working with protected adults/children, rather than the offence you described..

FYI - just because you conviction is spent doesn't mean that the police will have no record of it...i think they keep it until people are 100 years of age....

The PVG check should pick up the spent convictions anyhow without you declaring anything in a CRB check - i think.

ohreally

You may be looking at this from the wrong perspective, PVG will simply check that you don't appear on a barred list (children/ vulnerable adults). You will also be subject to an enhanced disclosure - ask the uni for their thoughts on your situation, they will have come across this in the past.

maryhilllad

Ok will do thanks, the PvG scheme is more or less an enhanced disclosure to check that you are not on the sex offenders register or any barring register, and I am not, the problem was the 1993 conviction which did show up ten years ago when I applied for a Care position, but my police record is clean now.

Nebulous2

You need to get proper advice on this.
Has it ever appeared on a disclosure?
What do you mean by you were told you would have been refused?

Generally for care work you have to declare everything, they aren't regarded as spent but there could be a difference in a conviction before the age of 18. Did it go to court?

Even if you have to disclose it I'm struggling to see that would be an automatic refusal. It's a long time ago and people change. You need to be open to discuss it though, explain how much of a wake up call it was and what you learned from it.

Jinx

I used to work in a place with enhanced disclosure and PVG, I have never heard of the rule you mention OP.

During our recruitment process applicants were advised to disclose everything as anything at all coming to light would mean dismissal due to non-disclosure whereas disclosure could be explained.

I would go with the honesty route. If you cant get on a course, you wont be able to get employment in the same sector either imo.

Good luck.

maryhilllad

I worked as a care assistant for around 8 years, but it was before the PvG scheme was introduced, and I had an enhanced disclosure done, and both convictions showed up, but I was open an honest in applying the company I worked for didn't have a problem as the convictions at the time were 10 years old at the time.

I completed the access course to get directly into bsc nursing, but the university informed me that there was no way I could study nursing because of these convictions, I could have been ill informed at the time though I guess. But as far as I know, I am not barred from any service, or on any register where I can't work with people in a vulnerable group.

And I really don't want to inform the uni that I did have a criminal record, if this '20/40 rule' comes into effect. I had a basic disclosure done recently and there's nothing on that, I am sorry I find the whole process a bit confusing.

The police and disclosure Scotland informed me on the 20/40 rule, as well as my local MP, I am a bit dubious not being open an honest with them too, as it could get me into even more trouble if I state I have no convictions, and it shows up on the PvG that I do.

ohreally

maryhilllad wrote: »

The police and disclosure Scotland informed me on the 20/40 rule, as well as my local MP, I am a bit dubious not being open an honest with them too, as it could get me into even more trouble if I state I have no convictions, and it shows up on the PvG that I do.

I refer to my earlier post, the PVG isn't your concern, its the possibility of your past showing on the enhanced disclosure.


http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/disclosureinformation/enhanceddisclosure.htm

Nebulous2

maryhilllad wrote: »

I completed the access course to get directly into bsc nursing, but the university informed me that there was no way I could study nursing because of these convictions, I could have been ill informed at the time though I guess. But as far as I know, I am not barred from any service, or on any register where I can't work with people in a vulnerable group.

I'm still not sure who told you there was no way you could study nursing. Was it the access course people? A lecturer? Or the admissions people?

I think they will need to know. If it was on an enhanced disclosure I'd expect it to still be there.

I'm not as involved with disclosures or PVG as I used to be but I've never heard of this 20 / 40 thing and I think I would have if it is in operation.

Any non-disclosure of information that then appeared on a disclosure certificate meant dismissal with us. We were more concerned about hiding it than we were about many of the offences.

maryhilllad

Unfortunately, as a newbie to the site I can't post the link that explains the 20/40 rule, but it's on Disclosure Scotland's website, and Police Scotland's, I got the advice directly from both these agencies about the 20/40 rule, and I got a copy under the freedom of information act of what records Police Scotland has on me, and there was nothing on it at all, when I apply for an enhanced disclosure, nothing will show up on my record, it's the PvG I am concerned about, as it's all a bit vague and confusing, maybe I should speak to an MP or lawyer about it.

And yes, I completed the access course, and applied to University around the Easter holidays, and was blatantly told by a lecturer at the university that there was no possible way I could do the course with these convictions on my record, despite being up front to them about it, I still completed the access course to gain qualifications and followed a different route, not what I wanted to do but oh well.

Nebulous2

Maryhillad - apologies for being cynical about this before I've now googled it. FOI result on 20:40 rule here.

It still isn't clear to me whether it will appear or not. This page seems to say it will.

Thinking about this though. - I have a careless driving conviction gained in my late teens. It doesn't show on an enhanced disclosure, nor on my PVG. This may be why. I always disclose it at recruitment. Ironically I got in for my nurse training a couple of years later, but things may well have changed.

I'd be approaching it from the viewpoint that you need to tell them, but that it shouldn't be a barrier. I still don't know if you actually applied and were formally rejected or if a lecturer said you had no chance and you then backed off.

This page says:-
"If you have a criminal conviction or a police caution, this will not automatically bar you from working in the NHS, as each conviction is considered in the light of all relevant circumstances."

That is pretty much what I would have expected.

Here's an old nursing times article which says some places seem to take a very hard line.

Several articles, including this say you must declare everything.

Glasgow Caledonian says you should seek advice before applying, which may well be what you did.

So all in all it seems quite a minefield. I wish you well but I'm still strongly of the view you need to declare it.