Section 75 and builders

pixiepie99

We employed a builder to divide a large bathroom into two rooms; an en suite and bathroom.

He said the job would take three weeks. Well, 5 months on, we've finally fired him and got someone else in to finish the work.

The new builder has identified significant issues with the en-suite which may mean we need to strip it all out and start again. There's also work that wasn't finished by the first builder, a long list of jobs that were done poorly and need re-doing. In addition, we've identified a number of fittings and fixtures where the original builder has lied about their quality to increase his profit (he was buying most of these as he said he would get us quality items with his trade discout - turns out lots of things are from Screwfix and B&Q). For example, his quote says the radiator was £400. The new builder recognised it as one Screwfix sell at £200.

Original quote was £17.5k. Updated quote was £22,500 - we agreed a small amount of additional works but nothing like that additional amount. We actually paid him £15,000.

The new builder has given us a ball park figure of £6k to put it all right but I suspect this will go up significantly as he keeps finding more issues.

Luckily, we paid the first £2,500 on a credit card so it looks like we are protected by Section 75 and can claim from our credit card company.

The issue is, I can't seem to find clear guidance on what we can claim for - is it the £15,000 we paid the original builder, the costs over and above the original quote, or what?

Any advice would be most appreciated.

chanz4

tricky also as you have fired him, also the person doing the work has an invested intrest.


One thing to bear in mind, a lost if not most use screwfix , b&q trade and other big chains. Just because it costs £200 doesn't mean he cant sell higher.

eddddy

In simple terms, if the builder has breached the contract, and you have lost money (or had to pay out more) as a result - you can claim the loss (or extra payment) from the builder or CC company.


So if the builder said "I will do a,b,c and d for £17.5k" and you ended up having to pay a total of £27.5k (including using another builder to finish the job), you can claim £10k from the builder or CC company.


But it gets messy if, for example:

- The builder said it was an 'estimate' and not a fixed price.

- Or if the builder said it would be 'good quality' and isn't - your opinion on 'good quality' may be different from the builder's.

- Or if the builder says you fired him without giving him the opportunity to put things right


And I suspect the CC company will want a lot of documentary evidence - copies of the original contract/quote, maybe a report from a 'bathroom expert' etc.

Aquamania

pixiepie99 wrote: »

We employed a builder to divide a large bathroom into two rooms; an en suite and bathroom.

He said the job would take three weeks. Well, 5 months on, we've finally fired him and got someone else in to finish the work.

The new builder has identified significant issues with the en-suite which may mean we need to strip it all out and start again. There's also work that wasn't finished by the first builder, a long list of jobs that were done poorly and need re-doing. In addition, we've identified a number of fittings and fixtures where the original builder has lied about their quality to increase his profit (he was buying most of these as he said he would get us quality items with his trade discout - turns out lots of things are from Screwfix and B&Q). For example, his quote says the radiator was £400. The new builder recognised it as one Screwfix sell at £200.

Original quote was £17.5k. Updated quote was £22,500 - we agreed a small amount of additional works but nothing like that additional amount. We actually paid him £15,000.

The new builder has given us a ball park figure of £6k to put it all right but I suspect this will go up significantly as he keeps finding more issues.

Luckily, we paid the first £2,500 on a credit card so it looks like we are protected by Section 75 and can claim from our credit card company.

The issue is, I can't seem to find clear guidance on what we can claim for - is it the £15,000 we paid the original builder, the costs over and above the original quote, or what?

Any advice would be most appreciated.

Have you spoken to the builder since you fired him and explained the situtation?

Your situation is complicated because you appear to have decided to fire the builder before he has had the opportunity to address your concerns. But that doesn't necessarily mean you don't have the possibility to sue him for losses if you believe you have a case.

I would suggest you seek independent leagl advice, The internet is not the place to obtain such advice.

However, if you were quoted £400 for a radiator (which you presumably accepted) and someone has now pointed out you could have got the same radiator elsewhere for half the price, that is not the basis for a valid claim.

pixiepie99

Believe me, we gave this guy plenty of opportunity to finish the work. We agreed a long list of snags with him over a month ago which have barely been touched. He's downright lied about reasons for delays. Plus, he's made serious errors with the work which means that most of what he's done will need to be ripped out and started again. This final point is key as why would we offer him the opportunity to come back now when he is clearly not competent to do the work?

Also, on the radiator issue, he showed us a catalogue from which we picked a radiator. This showed the price of that radiator. He has then clearly gone out and bought a much cheaper one that looks the same/similar enough to the expensive one to fool us with the intention of pocketing the difference. Most people would describe that as fraud.

Anyway, thanks for the comments; we'll see what our card provider has to say.

forgotmyname

It may actually be the same radiator though. A lots of shops brand goods with their own label yet the goods are supplied bu the same manufacturer.

Buy a heater motor from Audi and its £400+ but comes in a box with AUDI labels. Or for less than £100 you can buy the same part but not in an Audi box. Same brand, Same spec etc. The only difference was the date codes stamped into the housing.

It maybe the same item but in a posh box. Making money supplying the parts is not a crime.

You chose a style and he supplied it.

lynz68

Your issue may well be documentary evidence, have you got written confirmation of anything, a contract with the original builder etc.

How do you know your new builder isn't creating problems to get more money out of you. I doubt his word would be good enough for the credit card company they would want it independently assessed.

Due to the sum involved they are going to want a lot of evidence and you may end up having to go to Court to fight this I don't see the credit card company just paying out. You have to also keep in mind if it goes that far you may loose.

Thrugelmir

pixiepie99 wrote: »

Luckily, we paid the first £2,500 on a credit card

For what? On account payment for materials?

Aquamania

pixiepie99 wrote: »

Believe me, we gave this guy plenty of opportunity to finish the work. We agreed a long list of snags with him over a month ago which have barely been touched. He's downright lied about reasons for delays. Plus, he's made serious errors with the work which means that most of what he's done will need to be ripped out and started again. This final point is key as why would we offer him the opportunity to come back now when he is clearly not competent to do the work?

Also, on the radiator issue, he showed us a catalogue from which we picked a radiator. This showed the price of that radiator. He has then clearly gone out and bought a much cheaper one that looks the same/similar enough to the expensive one to fool us with the intention of pocketing the difference. Most people would describe that as fraud.

Anyway, thanks for the comments; we'll see what our card provider has to say.

If it's not the radiator that you ordered from the original builder, surely you pointed that out to hime as soon as you noticed?

Not sure why it took another builder months later to recognise it was not the specific radiator you ordered and tell you ... or even how the second builder even knew what radiator you originally pointed out to the first builder in a catalogue.

(If it's essentially the same radiator, how do you know for sure where the radiator was sourced from? And unless you have some very strange & specific term in your contract mandating the original builder on where to source materials from, the builder can source them from wherever he likes)

Good luck with your claim.

I'm sure your card provider will ask you to attempt to sort the matter out with the original builder.
If you persist in pursuing the credit card company, I'm sure due to the complicated nature, this will end up in court ... and the credit card company will insist the original builder is a defence party to your claim.

The court will take a very dim view of you wasting their time if you have not attempted to resolve your issues out of court first (and that will include with the original builder who will be there jointly with the best legal teams the credit card companies always seem to have to represent them.)

Crabman

As your claim is likely to be over £10,000, it's best you seek independent legal advice before talking to the credit provider.

I can only refer to a case I saw relating to new windows and section 75 to try and help you gauge how they may deal with your case. The payment went on a credit card, but the windows weren't the ones ordered and were not even fitted to the building properly.

The credit card provider paid for an independent report from a third party and paid the consumer for the costs identified in the report as being necessary to put things right.

Your situation may be more complex and this is why it's important you get good advice from a solicitor. Most places will give you an initial free appointment so you can consider whether it's worth instructing them and whether their costs will be paid by the other side. Tip: record the audio of any meetings with the solicitor as you can then listen back to them and make sure you've understood their advice.

I would steer clear of the ombudsman as they won't award costs for legal representation and they're easily confused by a complex case.

pixiepie99

Just wanted to provide an update on this in case anyone is interested or in a similar situation.

Our section 75 claim was successful once an independent inspection had confirmed that the workmanship was substandard. The report advised both bathrooms required complete disassembly so that underlying issues could be rectified. We have agreed a list of works with the credit card company and they have requested two quotes which we're in the process of getting.

I'm just so relieved that we paid for some of the works with a credit card.