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Apologies for another G24 fine question thread
bodiecowleyndoyl
Posts: 4 Newbie
Hi,
very new to this, but someone who shall remain nameless overstayed at a local Wickes car park (she thought it had a 2 hour limit it was only 90mins - she stayed for 114mins).
I've been to the car park, where she parked in the centre, there were no signs, only on the edge. I also think that £100 reduced to £60 is a little bit rich for a 24min overstay.
I went on a few threads and thought I could appeal the process using one of the standard appeals letters I cut + pasted in.
I then received this reply:
Dear Mr XXXX
RE: Contractual Parking Charge Notice XXXXX
Thank you for your email.
We respond as follows :
1. In relation to your suggestion that your parking charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss we confirm we have obtained legal advice in this regard and have been advised that not only can our parking charges be justified on the basis that they are in line with the Independent Parking Committee's guidelines, and that they amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss, but they are likely to amount to liquidated damages (where the issue of pre-estimate of loss is not relevant). This is because the Court’s position is that where the parties to a contract agree to fix the amount which is to be paid by way of damages in the event of a breach of contract - which is the basis of the contract detailed on our signage - a sum stipulated in this way (particularly in circumstances where there is difficulty in calculating a precise estimation) is classed as liquidated damages. Either way, our parking charges are fully enforceable and no not amount to a “penalty”. You should also be aware that in accordance with the case of Robophone Facilities v Blank the onus of proving that an amount claimed is a penalty, rather than liquidated damages, is upon you (as the party against whom the parking charge is claimed);
2. If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to the Independent Appeals Service (IAS). In order to appeal the IAS will need your parking charge number, your vehicle registration and the date the charge was originally issued. Appeals must be submitted to the IAS within 21 days of the date of this letter. Please visit xxxx for full details.
3. Again, you do not specify in which way you allege we not have authority to issue charges over the land where the car park is located. However, we can assure you that the parking management at the car park where you received a parking charge has been contracted to us. Again, we are able to confirm that we have been successfully audited by an independent assessor on behalf of the Independent Parking Committee.
The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("the Act), (Schedule 4), which governs parking on private land, provides a definition for "parking charge" and "adequate notice" of such private parking charges. The relevant sections of Schedule 4 to the Act state :
“parking charge”
(a) in the case of a relevant obligation arising under the terms of a relevant contract, means a sum in the nature of a fee or charge, and
(b) in the case of a relevant obligation arising as a result of a trespass or other tort, means a sum in the nature of damages ...
... “relevant obligation” means
(a) an obligation arising under the terms of a relevant contract; or
(b) an obligation arising, in any circumstances where there is no relevant contract, as a result of a trespass or other tort committed by parking the vehicle on the relevant land; ...
... The reference in the definition of “parking charge” to a sum in the nature of damages is to a sum of which adequate notice was given to drivers of vehicles
(when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land).
For the purposes of sub-paragraph (2) “adequate notice” means notice given by:
... (b) ... the display of one or more notices which
(i) specify the sum as the charge for unauthorised parking; and
(ii) are adequate to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land".
In this instance a parking charge has been issued based on the fact that the driver of your vehicle entered into a contract with us (by the act of parking the vehicle) and our signage (which states the terms and conditions of parking) having been clearly displayed in the car park.
The Act permits parking charges to be rendered on private land, and the case of Parking Eye Limited v Somerfield Stores Limited [2012] EWCA Civ 1338 (Court of Appeal) held that (taking into account inflation) the parking company was entitled to claim a parking charge of a similar amount to that which we have charged, and therefore your reference to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 is not of any relevance in the context of this parking charge.
You should also be aware that the amount of our parking charges accords with the recommendations of the British Parking Association, of which we are a member.
The nature of our contract with our client is confidential but will be supplied during any Court proceedings.
After consideration of the information provided by you, your dispute has been unsuccessful as proof of purchase has not been supplied for the day in question therefore the Contractual Parking Charge Notice still applies. As we have extensively investigated this Contractual Parking Charge Notice and provided you with the results of our investigation, no further investigation will be undertaken.
You now have one of the following options available to you:
1. Pay the outstanding Parking Charge. Payment of your Contractual Parking Charge Notice can be made via the payment line: 0845 452 7777 or by sending a cheque or postal order to G24 Limited, PO Box 3320, Gerrards Cross, Buckinghamshire, SL9 8WT.
2. If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to the Independent Appeals Service (IAS). In order to appeal the IAS will need your parking charge number, your vehicle registration and the date the charge was originally issued. Appeals must be submitted to the IAS within 21 days of the date of this letter. Please visit xxx for full details.
3. If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.
4. Supply copies of your receipts for the day in question or your bank statement with your private details erased showing the transaction(s) on our client's site within 14 days. Please do not send in original documents as they will not be returned.
Customer Services
G24 Ltd
To Pay your Parking Charge visit xxxxxx or call our payment line on 0845 452 7777.
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL, if you wish to continue your appeal visit our appeals website at xxxxxx
I've read alot on the forums about popla etc but they are not offering popla - only IAS (is this really independent??) - could anybody please give me some advice - I've seen you've been very knowledgeable and helpful in the past. Any advice would be greatfully appreciated.
Kind regards
bodiecowleyndoyle
very new to this, but someone who shall remain nameless overstayed at a local Wickes car park (she thought it had a 2 hour limit it was only 90mins - she stayed for 114mins).
I've been to the car park, where she parked in the centre, there were no signs, only on the edge. I also think that £100 reduced to £60 is a little bit rich for a 24min overstay.
I went on a few threads and thought I could appeal the process using one of the standard appeals letters I cut + pasted in.
I then received this reply:
Dear Mr XXXX
RE: Contractual Parking Charge Notice XXXXX
Thank you for your email.
We respond as follows :
1. In relation to your suggestion that your parking charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss we confirm we have obtained legal advice in this regard and have been advised that not only can our parking charges be justified on the basis that they are in line with the Independent Parking Committee's guidelines, and that they amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss, but they are likely to amount to liquidated damages (where the issue of pre-estimate of loss is not relevant). This is because the Court’s position is that where the parties to a contract agree to fix the amount which is to be paid by way of damages in the event of a breach of contract - which is the basis of the contract detailed on our signage - a sum stipulated in this way (particularly in circumstances where there is difficulty in calculating a precise estimation) is classed as liquidated damages. Either way, our parking charges are fully enforceable and no not amount to a “penalty”. You should also be aware that in accordance with the case of Robophone Facilities v Blank the onus of proving that an amount claimed is a penalty, rather than liquidated damages, is upon you (as the party against whom the parking charge is claimed);
2. If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to the Independent Appeals Service (IAS). In order to appeal the IAS will need your parking charge number, your vehicle registration and the date the charge was originally issued. Appeals must be submitted to the IAS within 21 days of the date of this letter. Please visit xxxx for full details.
3. Again, you do not specify in which way you allege we not have authority to issue charges over the land where the car park is located. However, we can assure you that the parking management at the car park where you received a parking charge has been contracted to us. Again, we are able to confirm that we have been successfully audited by an independent assessor on behalf of the Independent Parking Committee.
The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("the Act), (Schedule 4), which governs parking on private land, provides a definition for "parking charge" and "adequate notice" of such private parking charges. The relevant sections of Schedule 4 to the Act state :
“parking charge”
(a) in the case of a relevant obligation arising under the terms of a relevant contract, means a sum in the nature of a fee or charge, and
(b) in the case of a relevant obligation arising as a result of a trespass or other tort, means a sum in the nature of damages ...
... “relevant obligation” means
(a) an obligation arising under the terms of a relevant contract; or
(b) an obligation arising, in any circumstances where there is no relevant contract, as a result of a trespass or other tort committed by parking the vehicle on the relevant land; ...
... The reference in the definition of “parking charge” to a sum in the nature of damages is to a sum of which adequate notice was given to drivers of vehicles
(when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land).
For the purposes of sub-paragraph (2) “adequate notice” means notice given by:
... (b) ... the display of one or more notices which
(i) specify the sum as the charge for unauthorised parking; and
(ii) are adequate to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land".
In this instance a parking charge has been issued based on the fact that the driver of your vehicle entered into a contract with us (by the act of parking the vehicle) and our signage (which states the terms and conditions of parking) having been clearly displayed in the car park.
The Act permits parking charges to be rendered on private land, and the case of Parking Eye Limited v Somerfield Stores Limited [2012] EWCA Civ 1338 (Court of Appeal) held that (taking into account inflation) the parking company was entitled to claim a parking charge of a similar amount to that which we have charged, and therefore your reference to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 is not of any relevance in the context of this parking charge.
You should also be aware that the amount of our parking charges accords with the recommendations of the British Parking Association, of which we are a member.
The nature of our contract with our client is confidential but will be supplied during any Court proceedings.
After consideration of the information provided by you, your dispute has been unsuccessful as proof of purchase has not been supplied for the day in question therefore the Contractual Parking Charge Notice still applies. As we have extensively investigated this Contractual Parking Charge Notice and provided you with the results of our investigation, no further investigation will be undertaken.
You now have one of the following options available to you:
1. Pay the outstanding Parking Charge. Payment of your Contractual Parking Charge Notice can be made via the payment line: 0845 452 7777 or by sending a cheque or postal order to G24 Limited, PO Box 3320, Gerrards Cross, Buckinghamshire, SL9 8WT.
2. If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to the Independent Appeals Service (IAS). In order to appeal the IAS will need your parking charge number, your vehicle registration and the date the charge was originally issued. Appeals must be submitted to the IAS within 21 days of the date of this letter. Please visit xxx for full details.
3. If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.
4. Supply copies of your receipts for the day in question or your bank statement with your private details erased showing the transaction(s) on our client's site within 14 days. Please do not send in original documents as they will not be returned.
Customer Services
G24 Ltd
To Pay your Parking Charge visit xxxxxx or call our payment line on 0845 452 7777.
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL, if you wish to continue your appeal visit our appeals website at xxxxxx
I've read alot on the forums about popla etc but they are not offering popla - only IAS (is this really independent??) - could anybody please give me some advice - I've seen you've been very knowledgeable and helpful in the past. Any advice would be greatfully appreciated.
Kind regards
bodiecowleyndoyle
0
Comments
-
You've done the dance, now just file everything away and ignore them. IAS is pretty much a kangaroo court and pointless. File and forget and debt collector letters you receive too.
DON'T ignore any actual court papers or legal letters that are a Letter Before Action or Letter before County Court Claim. (Any letter from a DC that says they may take action or may recommend our client to take action fall under the file and forget category).0 -
G24 are a bunch of corrupt chancers - obtained legal advice indeed !!!!
They are liars and conmen. They now belong to a lying and conning trade association. Just ignore them - they've NEVER done court and the owner Adrian King knows that ...... don't you Adrian ( they read these threads you know ! ). Love and kisses Adrian - still awaiting my THREE sets of court papers your untrained monkey promised me :rotfl:"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis." - Dante Alighieri0 -
As a point of note, over the last couple of weeks I've had reason to visit a few Wickes' stores between Yorkshire, the Midlands and North West of England. All of them still have the G24 BPA signs up, no mention of IPC, and all mention a contractual charge of £100 "If you breach any of the above terms and conditions"... (overstaying the 90 minutes, leaving the site, not parking in correct bays etc)<--- Nothing to see here - move along --->0
-
If there are old signs up (BPA logo and wording talking about breach/contravening terms of parking} then an IAS appeal would be worth trying if you get photos to prove it and argue there was no GPEOL. We can help.
But if the signs are IPC ones I would ignore the thing now, as others have said (expect never ignore court papers if G24 break the habit of a lifetime next year or something!). Hence why you file and KEEP all the letters now for 6 years.
So, get pics of those signs please! Could be the same as here:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5108257
Read that entire thread from page 1 as it will help you learn about the issues.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
This was Wickes @ Oldham last week... http://thumbsnap.com/f/YqfblgQy
I've got a few more Wickes pics on another phone, but they have all been identical.<--- Nothing to see here - move along --->0 -
Took me a while to get round to reading this and thanking you - they've got bpa logos and are pretty much exactly the same as StaffsSW and on coupon mad's link has posted - but it states instead of:
"If you breach any of the above terms and conditions of use you agree to pay a..."
it has:
"If your vehicle remains in this car park for more than the free stay period you agree to pay a £100 parking charge"
They have the bpa logo. Do I still need argue no GPEOL or should I ignore?
Thanks again in advance
bodiecowleyndoyle0 -
We need to see the exact wording, all of it please... if unsure then don't bother with Skippy the Bush Kangaroo at the alleged 'kangaroo court' of IAS.
But see here for what can be attempted when the signs are dodgy:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/67123481#Comment_67123481
If your sign is like that one then you could argue like I have just done for that poster, that the sign doesn't create an obligation to pay £100 for an overstay as the words '90 minutes free parking' is merely a headline statement to attract drivers to park and shop. It is not a phrase which creates any contract or even mentions what the terms are for an 'overstay' beyond 90 minutes. It cannot be assumed - for example the charge for staying over 90 minutes 'could be' 10p or £10,000 - it's simply not stated on that sign. There is no 'term' which obliges a driver to do anything except adhere to the 5 pictograms, as a customer on site.
You can copy some of the wording in that linked case to create your own IAS appeal if your sign is like that one (which is like the one posted by Staffs SW). Your rejection letter is also the same. If you try IAS appeal don't give away who was driving in case you lose - write as keeper, talking about the car and the driver in the 3rd person.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
I've copied out verbatim the wording from the sign, I have no actual proof that these were there when the driver parked in the car park. I'm missing a po box and postcode as I can't read them on the photo I've got.
Wickes customer car park
Camera controlled car park (big)
This land is private property (Med)
Customer parking only (big + bold)
This car park is for the exclusive use of customers whilst shopping at this site (small)
Charges apply as follows (small + bold)
90 minutes free parking (big + bold)
Disabled bays are for disabled badge holders only (small)
Parent and child parking only within marked bays (small)
No return within 1 hour (small)
If you leave this site whilst the vehicle reamins in the car park you may be liable to pay a parking charge (small)
If your vehicle remains in this car park for more than the free stay period you agree to pay a (small)
£100 parking charge (big bold)
Charges apply 24 hours (med)
Details of your vehicle will be recorded and g24 may contact the dvla to request the registered keeper’s details. Parking charges will be reduced by 40% if paid within 14 days. (small)
If the charge remains unpaid we will instruct our debt recovery provider and a further charge of up to £60 will be added to the amount outstanding. Credit/Debit card transactions may incur a surcharge.(small)
Terms of parking without permission (small)
You do so at your own risk to persional injury and property and agree to the vehicles owner being issued with a parking charge notice which will be issued by post. (small)
G24 ltd and their client accepts no responsiblity for loss or damage to cars or the contents thereof unless such loos or damage is caused by the negligence of g24 ltd. G24 ltd is solely responsible for providing parking space maximisation and is not responsible in any way for the car park’s surface. (small)
Managed and operated by:
g24 (logo)
bpa approved operator (logo)
bpa member of the british parking association (logo)
safe contractor approved (logo)
Contractor plus (logo)
DMUK (logo)
iso 9001 / 14001
Customer services tel 08700420261
Company reg no: 5457196
po box xxxx gerrards cross bucks postcode
Any advice again would be greatly appreciated, I'm erring on the ignoring route, would this be the correct way to go?0 -
Terms of parking without permission ... Bingo 1 - without permission = breach = GPEoL applies
bpa member of the british parking association ... Bingo 2 - BPA logo on IPC member signage = Confusion, so probably a slam-dunk at IAS (since G24 cannot offer POPLA which is BPA)
0 -
OK so your sign does actually create this as a term, which the other signs (such as in the link I gave and in the picture posted by StaffsSW) do not:
''If your vehicle remains in this car park for more than the free stay period you agree to pay a (small)
£100 parking charge (big bold)''
OK so if you want to try IAS it would be on the basis that the charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss based on the fact the sign says 'without permission'. BUT I agree with you, ignore this one now and just keep all the letters, I do not think that sign is going to be so easy to argue as the other version. I can see the IAS saying 'but the charge is a contractually agreed fee' (which it is NOT but that's the IAS and their allegedly kangaroo court for you).
So let us know if ever you get a different letter before claim, which isn't just the usual DRP or Zenith rubbish covered everywhere, such as here:
READ THIS BEFORE YOU START A NEW THREAD ABOUT ROSSENDALES or DEBT RECOVERY PLUS!
As a final idea you should try a complaint in person to the Wickes Store Manager, who can cancel these - and may well do so if you are assertive and tell him it's put you off returning.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0
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