Multiple PCNs - Beware, lots of idiocy displayed in this herein!

new_character

If you've read the whole post despite having no incentive to do so then, sincerely, I thank you. I know it's long.

I'd like to preface the rest of this post by saying that the situation I find myself in is by virtue of my own idiocy and neglect. I could list a million justifications for why I've allowed this to happen and they would be true but still not a valid excuse. Let's just say I have my reasons however invalid that may be, so I'd very much appreciate it if hostile comments could be thought not written, however appropriate you might consider them to be. Here we go...

I have amassed a number of PCNs this year as a result of consistently parking in two separate locations without displaying a permit. My situation differs from the norm and I have read the stickies, so I hope this thread doesn't generate a collective *sigh* from you all as I merely wonder whether the specifics of my situation warrant a different approach mainly due to the following:

a) I have not responded to a single letter in any way. No initial appeal, no POPLA, no nothing. I remember this being the standard advice not too long ago and I didn't until recently find out this had changed in 2013. I say to myself I would've responded had I known that the laws changed but that could just be the retrospective optimist in me up to its usual tricks. It's much easier to "would have written a letter if.." than "will write a letter". One actually requires effort and time whereas the other does not.

b) I'm not just a dude that parked at Tescos one day and overstayed by 10 minutes; rather I am someone who has frequently and consistently parked without a permit. This consistency obviously suggets intent, and perhaps that makes me somewhere near the top of the "potential court cases" pile.

The PCNs in question relate to two locations, here's some info:

Location 1
- The area immediately outside my rented apartment along with the many bays surrounding the area. Privately owned land.
- The name of this company is AM Parking Services LTD and I have received, at a rough guess, about 10-15 dashboard PCNs from them. But not a single NTK or letter of any kind from them or any DCA claiming to act on their behalf. We have been living here since May so I'd expect to have received something by now.

Location 2
- Again, privately owned land near where I work in which a permit is required be displayed in order to avoid breaching the T&Cs. The name of this company is "UK Parking patrol Office" or "UK Parking Patrol Office Ltd" - it seems to change depending on the mood of the person on the day they send the letter. My research into this company has yielded findings which suggest that they are very small, the owner has a very sketchy past involving CCJs against him, and that they have taken a grand total of zero people to court. I have gathered all the letters I can find relating to PCNs from this company:

PCN Issue Date 16/01/2014
DRP, creditor UK Parking patrol office LTD reduced payment offer to avoid court proceedings - date of letter 12/05
Zenith, notice of debt recovery assignment reduced settlement figure - date of letter 11/06
SMALL Claims Solicitors still says to contact DRP and still references UK parking patrol office - date of letter 18/08
SMALL Claims Solicitors says to contact DRP, full payment not received within 14 days uk parking something (can’t tell, letter not fully scanned) proceedings against you to obtain county court judgement - date of letter 11/09

PCN Issue Date 13/05/2014
UK parking patrol office PCN - date of letter 12/06/2014
DRP, creditor UK parking patrol office.. notice of intended court action - date of letter 29/07/2014
DRP, reduced payment offer - date of letter 13/08/2014
Zenith, take advantage of discounted settlement offer - date of letter 11/09/2014
SMALL Claims Solicitors says still to contact DRP, full payment not received within 14 days proceedings against you to obtain county court judgement - date of letter - 06/11/2014

PCN Issue Date 04/06/2014
UK Parking patrol office PCN - date of letter 04/07/2014
DRP, demand for payment of an unpaid parking chage - date of letter 12/08/2014
DRP, notice of intended court action - date of letter 27/08/2014
DRP, reduced payment offer to avoid court proceedings - date of letter 11/09/2014
Zenith, notice of debt recovery assignment, take advantage of discounted settlement offer - date of letter 10/10/2014

PCN Issue Date 06/05/2014 - ASDA (Almost forgot about this one)
DRP, creditor Smart Parking demand for payment - date of letter 25/07
DRP, notice of intended court action - date of letter 11/08
DRP, reduced payment offer to avoid court proceedings - date of letter 26/08
Zenith, note of debt recovery assignment, "take advantage of discounted settlement offer" - date of letter 22/09
Zenith, note of intention to commence legal proceedings "take advantage of discounted settlement offer" - date of letter 07/10

PCN Issue Date 07/08/2014
DRP, notice of intended court action - date of letter 05/11


I can only hope you people are kind enough to offer me some expert advice on this despite the fact that the scale of my situation is completely, and utterly, self inflicted. It's as if I got a shotgun, shot myself in the head once and thought wow that wasn't enough why don't I just shoot myself in the head every day for the next 6 months what a great idea. Who ever said humans were logical beings anyway?

Questions

1)The number of dashboard PCNs I have received far far outweighs the number of letters - is this lucky/normal or could it signal bad news? Has an amount of time passed now where I can consider certain PCNs as being no longer applicable due to not receiving a NTK letter or similar?

2)Given the fact that my situation is unusual, should I still go through the appeals process? What's my best bet. Currently I'm leaning towards keeping my head firmly beneath the sand but I will gladly be persuaded.

3)It's 2am and I'm going to sleep - I probably have lots more to ask but find myself to be very much cognitively impaired as a result of much work and little sleep.

Cheers to you all.

Fruitcake

First of all, read the Sticky thread for NEWBIES to work out what you should do in each case.


You can safely ignore anything and everything you get from a debt collection company. The only the thing they have the power to do is provide you with free alternative bog paper or firelighters. Actually you should keep all the bumpf you get from debt collectors but never ever contact them under any circumstances.


I've only skim read so I will go back and have a more detailed butcher's before the affluence of incohol becomes more prevalent.

pogofish

I fail to see what's special or different here - The specifics don't mean a thing and this is just the same as anyone else with DRP on their backs and quite indicative of how many PPCs still use the old debt collector threats despite POFA 2012.

Just be glad you seem to have been ticketed by the bottom feeders of the PPC world - I doubt it will go any further than empty threats but you will need to keep an eye-out for proper LBCCs or court papers for the next few years.

Umkomaas

The only time you can safely assume these PCNs to be 'timed out' is after 6 years. Any alleged 'debt' can be pursued via the small claims court during that time.

In terms of what you've already received, those with postal notification, from the dates you've given, are already beyond any appeal process, so ignore everything you get from the PPCs or debt collectors, other than a Letter Before Action or real court papers - come back if you do.

Those from AM Parking - you seem lucky to have received nothing in the post from them, they are BPA members and have access to the DVLA database to gain your postal details. Depending on the dates of recent windscreen tickets, they have timed out for invoking keeper liability (last available date to them for this is 56 days after the date of the parking event). So, if they do wish to pursue, it is only the driver in the firing line - and as keeper, you do not have to reveal who that might have been. Therefore it's 'head down' on this PPC too, but with the same caveat as above re LBA/court papers.

I think your most 'profitable' next step is to formulate a strategy for avoiding the further collection of such charges.

I'm afraid I have to say, it's the type of flagrant abuse of parking on private land, displayed by you, that forces landowners to employ PPCs, why they have been able to gorge financially on the back of the British public, and why the cancer has spread to hospital car parks where the sick and the dying are having to fend off rabid intimidation from the PPC protection racketeers.

Count yourself fortunate you haven't racked these tickets up with ParkingEye!

bazster

The good news is you are dealing with some real duffers here.

Firstly, UKPPO who we often come across:

1. There is no such company as UK Parking Patrol Office (or rather there is, but it's dormant).

2. UKPPO is Mr. Steven Cheetham (yes, it's a one-man-band, and what an apt name!) who appears to be operating as a sole trader.

4. Does the signage at the site mention UKPPO Ltd.? If so, naughty naughty, the company is dormant and shouldn't be trading by offering contracts to park.

5. If not, does the signage at the site mention Steven Cheetham? Of course it doesn't, in which case the signage fails to create a contract. You can't enter into a contract with a trading name, the contract (if any) would be with the sole trader in his real name. Contracting party not clear = no contract.

6. Does his paperwork mention UKPPO Ltd.? If so, naughty naughty again, company is dormant.

7. If not, does his paperwork mention Steven Cheetham? Of course it doesn't, in which case he's broken the law: sole traders are required by law to show their real name on all their official paperwork.

8. His entry on the Data Protection Register is invalid because he's registered in his trading name, which is not permitted: sole traders must register in their real name.

9. His domain registration is invalid because he's registered as an individual but given his trading name, which is not permitted: individuals must register in their real name.

So in the highly unlikely event he is stupid enough to attempt to engage you in a court of law you have plenty of ammo to throw back in his face in an effort to dissuade him, such as reporting him to Companies House, Trading Standards, the ICO, Nominet and (ho ho) the BPA.

Secondly, AM Parking Services. This one is intriguing: there is a BPA member named AM Parking Services Ltd., it's a one-man-band, former clampit Darren Manley of Maidstone. But Manley is very much a Kentish weasel, whereas UKPPO suggests you are in the Manchester area. There was a former AM Parking Services Limited, dissolved in 2010, which was one Mussarat Mohammed of Chorlton, Manchester. I wonder if Mohammed has ignored the fact that his company no longer exists and is carrying on regardless? This would certainly explain why you've heard nothing: he can't get your details from the DVLA.

Basically ignore everything unless you get a real solicitor's letter (not just a debt collector pretending to be solicitors) or real court papers.

And yes, regularise your parking situation.

Coupon-mad

We have been living here since May so I'd expect to have received something by now.

So have the DVLA got your old address - did you update your V5 (as well as your driving licence address - two separate things)? Are all the other letters coming to your flat or to your old address? As long as you do collect & see all these letters and keep them in separate files (just in case) you should ignore them. In some cases try a complaint to the retailer/landowner (e.g. Smart Parking is usually Asda and you can get these cancelled if assertive enough in a complaint to the Store Manager or Head Office). Smart don't do court anyway but it would remove those ones which were retailer/Retail Park ones out of the equation if you assertively complain about this harassment of a paying customer.

Certainly ignore debt collectors, completely. They are not bailiffs and cannot start a court claim over a fake PCN. Not possible, only the PPC themselves or a solicitor can start a court claim and this lot you've listed are not litigious. You are lucky you haven't ignored a Parking Eye, CPS, Na'p!er or UKCPS one.

new_character

bazster wrote: »

The good news is you are dealing with some real duffers here.

Firstly, UKPPO who we often come across:

1. There is no such company as UK Parking Patrol Office (or rather there is, but it's dormant).

2. UKPPO is Mr. Steven Cheetham (yes, it's a one-man-band, and what an apt name!) who appears to be operating as a sole trader.

4. Does the signage at the site mention UKPPO Ltd.? If so, naughty naughty, the company is dormant and shouldn't be trading by offering contracts to park.

5. If not, does the signage at the site mention Steven Cheetham? Of course it doesn't, in which case the signage fails to create a contract. You can't enter into a contract with a trading name, the contract (if any) would be with the sole trader in his real name. Contracting party not clear = no contract.

6. Does his paperwork mention UKPPO Ltd.? If so, naughty naughty again, company is dormant.

7. If not, does his paperwork mention Steven Cheetham? Of course it doesn't, in which case he's broken the law: sole traders are required by law to show their real name on all their official paperwork.

8. His entry on the Data Protection Register is invalid because he's registered in his trading name, which is not permitted: sole traders must register in their real name.

9. His domain registration is invalid because he's registered as an individual but given his trading name, which is not permitted: individuals must register in their real name.

So in the highly unlikely event he is stupid enough to attempt to engage you in a court of law you have plenty of ammo to throw back in his face in an effort to dissuade him, such as reporting him to Companies House, Trading Standards, the ICO, Nominet and (ho ho) the BPA.

Secondly, AM Parking Services. This one is intriguing: there is a BPA member named AM Parking Services Ltd., it's a one-man-band, former clampit Darren Manley of Maidstone. But Manley is very much a Kentish weasel, whereas UKPPO suggests you are in the Manchester area. There was a former AM Parking Services Limited, dissolved in 2010, which was one Mussarat Mohammed of Chorlton, Manchester. I wonder if Mohammed has ignored the fact that his company no longer exists and is carrying on regardless? This would certainly explain why you've heard nothing: he can't get your details from the DVLA.

Basically ignore everything unless you get a real solicitor's letter (not just a debt collector pretending to be solicitors) or real court papers.

And yes, regularise your parking situation.

Thanks for confirming my initial judgement regarding UKPPO. I believe the AM Parking Services Limited I’m dealing with is the Maidstone one as I do indeed live in kent. Looking at the UKPPO website, “they” are predominantly manchester based but serve Chatham too which is indeed where I am located. It’s rather strange then that I haven’t received a letter since as you say, they are a BPA registered.

Umkomaas wrote: »

.....

I'm afraid I have to say, it's the type of flagrant abuse of parking on private land, displayed by you, that forces landowners to employ PPCs, why they have been able to gorge financially on the back of the British public, and why the cancer has spread to hospital car parks where the sick and the dying are having to fend off rabid intimidation from the PPC protection racketeers.

Count yourself fortunate you haven't racked these tickets up with ParkingEye!

I’ve cut out the first past of your post but i very much appreciate the advice and will continue to file but ignore any letters until / if I receive a legitimate “letter before action” or court papers of some kind.

I definitely agree with what you're saying regarding the abuse of parking on private land, and I also understand what I'm about to write does not absolve me of any wrong doing nor does it actually directly address the premise of your post. I'll say it anyway though: In both of these areas the car parks never, ever, close to being full. I've never seen more than, say, 30% of the bays being utilized at any one time and I'd be more than happy to bet my life on the fact that not once have I prevented a legitimate permit holder from being able to park. As I said, this doesn't really address your point though since you're referring to the cause of private land owners having to employ PCN's in the first place. Just wanted to get that off my chest, that's all.

Coupon-mad wrote: »

So have the DVLA got your old address - did you update your V5 (as well as your driving licence address - two separate things)? Are all the other letters coming to your flat or to your old address? As long as you do collect & see all these letters and keep them in separate files (just in case) you should ignore them. In some cases try a complaint to the retailer/landowner (e.g. Smart Parking is usually Asda and you can get these cancelled if assertive enough in a complaint to the Store Manager or Head Office). Smart don't do court anyway but it would remove those ones which were retailer/Retail Park ones out of the equation if you assertively complain about this harassment of a paying customer.

Certainly ignore debt collectors, completely. They are not bailiffs and cannot start a court claim over a fake PCN. Not possible, only the PPC themselves or a solicitor can start a court claim and this lot you've listed are not litigious. You are lucky you haven't ignored a Parking Eye, CPS, Na'p!er or UKCPS one.

Am I correct in assuming that there is really only one method by which private parking operators obtain vehicle owner details via the DVLA? If that’s the case then the mere fact that I’ve been receiving letters from UKPPO (the most recent one being 10 days ago) suggests that AM parking ltd simply have not sent any out?

In any case, my details have been updated but a part of me is worried there’s a stack of letters somewhere being directed to a random address. Good old paranoia.


I know that the chances of a court case occurring becomes almost an inevitability if I were to continue down this careless path long term, so thanks for everyones comments regarding that and thanks for keeping this civil. As we speak my car is now safely parked in a different area; albeit one which is a 10 minute walk away instead of the ~8 seconds I'm used to. I look outside my front window and see a great number of empty bays.. taunting me, no doubt

bazster

new_character wrote: »

Am I correct in assuming that there is really only one method by which private parking operators obtain vehicle owner details via the DVLA? If that’s the case then the mere fact that I’ve been receiving letters from UKPPO (the most recent one being 10 days ago) suggests that AM parking ltd simply have not sent any out?

Yes that's correct. One-man-bands such as Manley often struggle with the procedures. If he finds it too taxing for his brain cell he might just rely on the mugs who pay up as soon as they get the toilet paper on their windscreen. Remember you are dealing with a former clampit here, they are by definition not the sharpest knives in the block.

new_character wrote: »

In any case, my details have been updated but a part of me is worried there’s a stack of letters somewhere being directed to a random address. Good old paranoia.

Doesn't seem terribly likely. We know because of UKPPO that DVLA is handing out your correct address, and these operators are supposed to make an individual request for every ticket so, if Manley's made an error, he must have repeated it many times.