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Virgin Media - Moving to a Non Service Area
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Jordanderve
Posts: 25 Forumite
Hi Guys, Newbie here. I am moving house and have 8 months remaining on my Virgin Media account. I have been happy with the service and would have continued to use Virgin Media. However, discovering that I would be moving to a non service area, I have been quoted an early termination fee of £240. This seems disproportionate given that I want to remain a customer and have paid everything in advance i.e. line rental etc. Anyway, Virgin will not be budged so I resorted to checking their t&Cs. Here is the letter I have drafted, do you think I have any chance?
I am due to move address 12 December 2014 and I duly called your customer services on both 10th & 11th November 2014 to discuss this matter.
Upon confirming my future address and requesting that my services are transferred, it transpires that the area I am moving to is a no service area (for Virgin). My Future address will be xxx xxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxx.
Although disappointed at this, I was dismayed to discover that I will be charged a disconnection fee of £240.00. This is outrageous and certain not clear in the terms and conditions of the services I received. Furthermore, I asked to see a copy of my signed agreement to wish I was told that Virgin Media do not hold a signed agreement with me.
OFCOMs most recent guidance states on early termination fees:
1. We expect a minimum contract period to be clearly highlighted and easy to understand;
2. We think that a charge for ending a contract early will usually be fair provided:
a. it is absolutely clear before you sign that you risk having to pay a charge if you end the deal early
b. you know how much that charge will be
3. the charge will never be more than the remaining amounts you would have normally paid
4. it reflects any savings a company might make when you cancel the deal, or anything that they can re-sell
The applicable terms and conditions for Virgin Media are:
J Ending this agreement
1. Either you or we may end this agreement at any time (including during or at the end of any minimum period) by giving the other 30 days' notice. You must pay any charges (including usage charges and line rental) up to the end of that 30-day notice period. You may also have to pay an early disconnection fee if your services end within the relevant minimum period as set out in paragraph J2.
2. If you end one or more services during the minimum period for such services (other than in the circumstances outlined in section K or paragraph J3), or if you break this agreement and we and/or Virgin Media Payments end this agreement under section L (including for non-payment of charges) within the minimum period applicable to those services, you must immediately pay (to Virgin Media Payments) an early disconnection fee in respect of each cancelled service by way of compensation to us for ending those services early. You can find details of these charges on the Virgin Media website. The early disconnection fee will not be more than the charges you would have paid for your chosen services for the remainder of the minimum period less any costs we save, including the cost of no longer providing you with those services.
3. If we and/or Virgin Media Payments:
a) increase our charges under this agreement
b) make significant changes to the services so the services you are entitled to receive in return for the charges you pay are significantly altered or reduced; or
c) make significant changes to the terms and conditions of this agreement (including the other legal stuff),
you may cancel those services affected without penalty by giving us and/or Virgin Media Payments (as applicable) at least 30 days' notice. Such notice must be given within 30 days of the increase in charges or changes to the services or this agreement being notified to you. If you were not notified of these changes in advance, you must give notice of cancellation of the services affected to us and/or Virgin Media Payments (as applicable) within 30 days of receipt of your first bill following such increase in charges. If you do not give notice of cancellation within the specified period, you will be deemed to have accepted the increase in charges and/or the changes to the services and this agreement. You will no longer be able to cancel your services under this paragraph. If you cancel any services in these circumstances, the increased charges will not apply to those services during the 30-day notice period and paragraph J2 will not apply if you cancel before the end of the minimum period.
4. If we and/or Virgin Media Payments break the terms and conditions of this agreement, you're free to end this agreement.
5. We may end this agreement immediately by giving you notice:
a. if our authority to operate as a public communications provider is suspended for any reason;
b. if in our reasonable opinion it is necessary to do so for security, technical or operational reasons.
6. When this agreement ends or you cancel a service, we will deactivate (permanently switch off) any relevant equipment we supplied to you to provide the services. You will no longer be able to use the equipment.
7. If you fail to return or make available for removal any item of the equipment which we have hired to you, you may have to pay extra charges for such equipment, including the replacement cost and reasonable recovery costs. In addition to our other rights, we reserve the right to bring proceedings against you for the return of our equipment.
8. If this agreement is ended for any reason, or if any of the services are cancelled, we and/or Virgin Media Payments will be entitled to keep any money held (including deposits and advance payments) and to use that money to pay any obligation or debt you may owe under this agreement. We'll get in touch with you to refund to you any money remaining after these deductions, unless our costs to administer that refund outweigh the actual account balance. If that's the case, we'll donate the account balance to charity. We may also donate your account balance to charity, whatever the amount, if we have not been able to contact you within six months of the date of termination of this agreement.
K Moving home
1. If you move to another address within our service area, you may ask us to provide the services to your new address. You must provide at least one month's notice to do this, but we cannot guarantee to provide you with the services at your new address.
2. If you move to another address during any minimum period paragraph J2 will apply, unless you continue to receive our services at your new address (in which case paragraph K3 will apply).
3. If we agree to provide the services to your new address, you may have to pay a service transfer charge (to be paid to Virgin Media Payments). Details of the service transfer charge are set out in the price guides. We will also send you a new contract for the services at your new address and you will have to keep the services for the minimum period. The service start date for your new minimum period will be the date that the services are installed at your new address. You may not be able to keep your phone number if you move house.
In-line with OFCOMs guidance, I believe that:
1. We think that a charge for ending a contract early will usually be fair provided:
a. it is absolutely clear before you sign that you risk having to pay a charge if you end the deal early
I do not believe that under OFCOMs guidance, the charge for ending the contract early is fair, by definition, for the following reason:
Under section K, I fall under the term K2 –
If you move to another address during any minimum period paragraph J2 will apply, unless you continue to receive our services at your new address (in which case paragraph K3 will apply).
Therefore, as I will not be receiving a service any longer, J2 applies.
Section J2 –
If you end one or more services during the minimum period for such services (other than in the circumstances outlined in section K or paragraph J3), or if you break this agreement and we and/or Virgin Media Payments end this agreement under section L (including for non-payment of charges) within the minimum period applicable to those services, you must immediately pay (to Virgin Media Payments) an early disconnection fee in respect of each cancelled service by way of compensation to us for ending those services early. You can find details of these charges on the Virgin Media website. The early disconnection fee will not be more than the charges you would have paid for your chosen services for the remainder of the minimum period less any costs we save, including the cost of no longer providing you with those services.
Section J2 clearly states that if I end one or more services during the minimum period for such services (other than in circumstances outlined in section K or paragraph J3)….you must immediately pay … an early disconnection fee in respect of each cancelled service by way of compensation to us for ending those services early. However, as I fall under circumstances outlined in section K i.e. moving home, I revert to section K. Section K refers you back to J2. Again, under J2, I am only liable to pay the early disconnection fee if it is not for circumstances outlined in section K. There is nothing clear about this and if anything it is a circular reference. In my mind, the terms applicable do not state, when terminating (not through choice but because Virgin do not service the area when moving home), that an early termination fee is payable. It is not unreasonable for me to assume from these terms that I am not subject to term J2 because I am moving house to an area not serviced by Virgin Media.
OFCOMs guidance says that is must be “absolutely clear before you sign that you risk having to pay a charge if you end the deal early”. It is not absolutely clear, that I would be bound by the terms of J2 if moving home (Section K) and I wish to continue receiving a service but Virgin are unable to continue to do so.
Furthermore, OFCOMs guidance also states that
2. We think that a charge for ending a contract early will usually be fair provided:
a. you know how much that charge will be
I do not believe that under OFCOMs guidance that the charge for ending the contract early is fair, by definition, for the following reason:
The terms and conditions do not state what the charge will be. Section J2 states that the charges are available on their website but the link provided within the terms and conditions simply take you to the Virgin Media shop. Therefore, the terms themselves do not stipulate what the charges will be. By definition, the charge cannot be deemed ‘fair’, if the charges are not known.
I expect my contract to be terminated with effect from 12 December 2014 (30 days notice has been given) unless Virgin can service my new property. I also expect that I will not be subject to the early termination fee for the reasons outlined above. I look forward to hearing from you within two weeks of the date of this letter.
If you've got this far, sorry for the war and peace effort.
I am due to move address 12 December 2014 and I duly called your customer services on both 10th & 11th November 2014 to discuss this matter.
Upon confirming my future address and requesting that my services are transferred, it transpires that the area I am moving to is a no service area (for Virgin). My Future address will be xxx xxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxx.
Although disappointed at this, I was dismayed to discover that I will be charged a disconnection fee of £240.00. This is outrageous and certain not clear in the terms and conditions of the services I received. Furthermore, I asked to see a copy of my signed agreement to wish I was told that Virgin Media do not hold a signed agreement with me.
OFCOMs most recent guidance states on early termination fees:
1. We expect a minimum contract period to be clearly highlighted and easy to understand;
2. We think that a charge for ending a contract early will usually be fair provided:
a. it is absolutely clear before you sign that you risk having to pay a charge if you end the deal early
b. you know how much that charge will be
3. the charge will never be more than the remaining amounts you would have normally paid
4. it reflects any savings a company might make when you cancel the deal, or anything that they can re-sell
The applicable terms and conditions for Virgin Media are:
J Ending this agreement
1. Either you or we may end this agreement at any time (including during or at the end of any minimum period) by giving the other 30 days' notice. You must pay any charges (including usage charges and line rental) up to the end of that 30-day notice period. You may also have to pay an early disconnection fee if your services end within the relevant minimum period as set out in paragraph J2.
2. If you end one or more services during the minimum period for such services (other than in the circumstances outlined in section K or paragraph J3), or if you break this agreement and we and/or Virgin Media Payments end this agreement under section L (including for non-payment of charges) within the minimum period applicable to those services, you must immediately pay (to Virgin Media Payments) an early disconnection fee in respect of each cancelled service by way of compensation to us for ending those services early. You can find details of these charges on the Virgin Media website. The early disconnection fee will not be more than the charges you would have paid for your chosen services for the remainder of the minimum period less any costs we save, including the cost of no longer providing you with those services.
3. If we and/or Virgin Media Payments:
a) increase our charges under this agreement
b) make significant changes to the services so the services you are entitled to receive in return for the charges you pay are significantly altered or reduced; or
c) make significant changes to the terms and conditions of this agreement (including the other legal stuff),
you may cancel those services affected without penalty by giving us and/or Virgin Media Payments (as applicable) at least 30 days' notice. Such notice must be given within 30 days of the increase in charges or changes to the services or this agreement being notified to you. If you were not notified of these changes in advance, you must give notice of cancellation of the services affected to us and/or Virgin Media Payments (as applicable) within 30 days of receipt of your first bill following such increase in charges. If you do not give notice of cancellation within the specified period, you will be deemed to have accepted the increase in charges and/or the changes to the services and this agreement. You will no longer be able to cancel your services under this paragraph. If you cancel any services in these circumstances, the increased charges will not apply to those services during the 30-day notice period and paragraph J2 will not apply if you cancel before the end of the minimum period.
4. If we and/or Virgin Media Payments break the terms and conditions of this agreement, you're free to end this agreement.
5. We may end this agreement immediately by giving you notice:
a. if our authority to operate as a public communications provider is suspended for any reason;
b. if in our reasonable opinion it is necessary to do so for security, technical or operational reasons.
6. When this agreement ends or you cancel a service, we will deactivate (permanently switch off) any relevant equipment we supplied to you to provide the services. You will no longer be able to use the equipment.
7. If you fail to return or make available for removal any item of the equipment which we have hired to you, you may have to pay extra charges for such equipment, including the replacement cost and reasonable recovery costs. In addition to our other rights, we reserve the right to bring proceedings against you for the return of our equipment.
8. If this agreement is ended for any reason, or if any of the services are cancelled, we and/or Virgin Media Payments will be entitled to keep any money held (including deposits and advance payments) and to use that money to pay any obligation or debt you may owe under this agreement. We'll get in touch with you to refund to you any money remaining after these deductions, unless our costs to administer that refund outweigh the actual account balance. If that's the case, we'll donate the account balance to charity. We may also donate your account balance to charity, whatever the amount, if we have not been able to contact you within six months of the date of termination of this agreement.
K Moving home
1. If you move to another address within our service area, you may ask us to provide the services to your new address. You must provide at least one month's notice to do this, but we cannot guarantee to provide you with the services at your new address.
2. If you move to another address during any minimum period paragraph J2 will apply, unless you continue to receive our services at your new address (in which case paragraph K3 will apply).
3. If we agree to provide the services to your new address, you may have to pay a service transfer charge (to be paid to Virgin Media Payments). Details of the service transfer charge are set out in the price guides. We will also send you a new contract for the services at your new address and you will have to keep the services for the minimum period. The service start date for your new minimum period will be the date that the services are installed at your new address. You may not be able to keep your phone number if you move house.
In-line with OFCOMs guidance, I believe that:
1. We think that a charge for ending a contract early will usually be fair provided:
a. it is absolutely clear before you sign that you risk having to pay a charge if you end the deal early
I do not believe that under OFCOMs guidance, the charge for ending the contract early is fair, by definition, for the following reason:
Under section K, I fall under the term K2 –
If you move to another address during any minimum period paragraph J2 will apply, unless you continue to receive our services at your new address (in which case paragraph K3 will apply).
Therefore, as I will not be receiving a service any longer, J2 applies.
Section J2 –
If you end one or more services during the minimum period for such services (other than in the circumstances outlined in section K or paragraph J3), or if you break this agreement and we and/or Virgin Media Payments end this agreement under section L (including for non-payment of charges) within the minimum period applicable to those services, you must immediately pay (to Virgin Media Payments) an early disconnection fee in respect of each cancelled service by way of compensation to us for ending those services early. You can find details of these charges on the Virgin Media website. The early disconnection fee will not be more than the charges you would have paid for your chosen services for the remainder of the minimum period less any costs we save, including the cost of no longer providing you with those services.
Section J2 clearly states that if I end one or more services during the minimum period for such services (other than in circumstances outlined in section K or paragraph J3)….you must immediately pay … an early disconnection fee in respect of each cancelled service by way of compensation to us for ending those services early. However, as I fall under circumstances outlined in section K i.e. moving home, I revert to section K. Section K refers you back to J2. Again, under J2, I am only liable to pay the early disconnection fee if it is not for circumstances outlined in section K. There is nothing clear about this and if anything it is a circular reference. In my mind, the terms applicable do not state, when terminating (not through choice but because Virgin do not service the area when moving home), that an early termination fee is payable. It is not unreasonable for me to assume from these terms that I am not subject to term J2 because I am moving house to an area not serviced by Virgin Media.
OFCOMs guidance says that is must be “absolutely clear before you sign that you risk having to pay a charge if you end the deal early”. It is not absolutely clear, that I would be bound by the terms of J2 if moving home (Section K) and I wish to continue receiving a service but Virgin are unable to continue to do so.
Furthermore, OFCOMs guidance also states that
2. We think that a charge for ending a contract early will usually be fair provided:
a. you know how much that charge will be
I do not believe that under OFCOMs guidance that the charge for ending the contract early is fair, by definition, for the following reason:
The terms and conditions do not state what the charge will be. Section J2 states that the charges are available on their website but the link provided within the terms and conditions simply take you to the Virgin Media shop. Therefore, the terms themselves do not stipulate what the charges will be. By definition, the charge cannot be deemed ‘fair’, if the charges are not known.
I expect my contract to be terminated with effect from 12 December 2014 (30 days notice has been given) unless Virgin can service my new property. I also expect that I will not be subject to the early termination fee for the reasons outlined above. I look forward to hearing from you within two weeks of the date of this letter.
If you've got this far, sorry for the war and peace effort.
0
Comments
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If you end one or more services during the minimum period for such services (other than in the circumstances outlined in section K or paragraph J3), or if you break this agreement and we and/or Virgin Media Payments end this agreement under section L (including for non-payment of charges) within the minimum period applicable to those services, you must immediately pay (to Virgin Media Payments) an early disconnection fee in respect of each cancelled service by way of compensation to us for ending those services early. You can find details of these charges on the Virgin Media website. The early disconnection fee will not be more than the charges you would have paid for your chosen services for the remainder of the minimum period less any costs we save, including the cost of no longer providing you with those services.
So its your contract cost minus any savings VM may make.
seems pretty clear to me0 -
Thanks Custardy. Whilst this is true, am I still bound by Section J2 when I fall under the circumstances of Section K (moving home). For this term to be correct, it should surely state (other than in the circumstances outlined in section K1, K3 or paragraph J3). Also, the costs are not clear as when I have asked for a breakdown, they have said that the termination fee for my broadband is £145 (based on my broadband being £42pm). My broadband isn't £42 per month as I only pay £33pm for TV, Phone and Broadband. They then quote "discounts" applied to my account. pparantently I get a £24pm discount for Broadband XL.0
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Jordanderve wrote: »Thanks Custardy. Whilst this is true, am I still bound by Section J2 when I fall under the circumstances of Section K (moving home). For this term to be correct, it should surely state (other than in the circumstances outlined in section K1, K3 or paragraph J3). Also, the costs are not clear as when I have asked for a breakdown, they have said that the termination fee for my broadband is £145 (based on my broadband being £42pm). My broadband isn't £42 per month as I only pay £33pm for TV, Phone and Broadband. They then quote "discounts" applied to my account. pparantently I get a £24pm discount for Broadband XL.
Those would be the discounts you will see on your bills?0 -
Nowhere does it state that my account receives discounts and certainly does not state that my 'full price' broadband is £42pm. My bill states the following:
Your Package
Charges for the period 15 November 2014 - 15 December 2015
Essential Collections:
Talk Weekends TV Size M+
TiVo Monthly Fee Broadband size XL (upto 100mb)
Essentials collection total £33.00
Usage Charges
Call Charge Total £1.73
VAT £0.35
Telephone calls total £2.08
Usage charges total £2.08
From the information available to me, I had no way of determining what charges I would be liable for should I terminate my contract which is against OFCOMs guidance.0 -
when Virgin Media was Telewest we had a similar problem and moved to a non-Telewest area and had to pay the remainder of the contract. Since it was not our fault that we could not get it at the new property, we received a credit note valid for 12 months (if I remember right) for the same value. When my daughter moved she used the credit for her new place0
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when Virgin Media was Telewest we had a similar problem and moved to a non-Telewest area and had to pay the remainder of the contract. Since it was not our fault that we could not get it at the new property, we received a credit note valid for 12 months (if I remember right) for the same value. When my daughter moved she used the credit for her new place
Thanks Caz3121. I feel that they have toughened their stance now although I will request that if I get no further. Thank you.0 -
Well it certainly wasn't VM/Telewest's fault that you chose to move out of a coverage area was it! Why should they have to pay for your decision?when Virgin Media was Telewest we had a similar problem and moved to a non-Telewest area and had to pay the remainder of the contract. Since it was not our fault that we could not get it at the new property, we received a credit note valid for 12 months (if I remember right) for the same value. When my daughter moved she used the credit for her new place0 -
You sure you moving into a non virgin area?? I had same prob my termination charge was nearly 400 quid ... then i found out i can get their service via telephone line (ADSL).. not fibre. So to avoid this fee i just change package and started a new 12 month contract.. was cheaper as could only get 20 meg but have to say i left after 12 month went to BT. Even got virgin TV... after 12 month on Virgin ADSL and TV was lest than the 400 quid...0
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You sure you moving into a non virgin area?? I had same prob my termination charge was nearly 400 quid ... then i found out i can get their service via telephone line (ADSL).. not fibre. So to avoid this fee i just change package and started a new 12 month contract.. was cheaper as could only get 20 meg but have to say i left after 12 month went to BT. Even got virgin TV... after 12 month on Virgin ADSL and TV was lest than the 400 quid...
VM no longer do ADSL IIRC.0 -
I doubled checked that Iain79 and custardy is correct. I would have been happy with that solution. It's a new build development and Virgin didn't pitch for the contract for 70 new build properties. Go figure.0
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