Land registry mess up

Land_Registry

Olliesuz - some useful and new information here and quite a few extra comments – I’ll try and keep my post as short as I can so as not to move the discussion into much wider and potentially muddier waters.

It is good to see that you have contacted the local office/caseworker dealing with the matter as the specific matters go hand in hand with the caseworker/office dealing with the actual application so my comments remain purely general in nature.

I have tried to pick off some of the comments made

• Registration of title takes into account the deeds as lodged on first registration plus what is already registered and the base map OS detail available at that time.

The OS map shows the physical features only and as mapped by OS following a survey of the area at a point in time. The OS map should not on it's own be relied upon to understand the extent of the land/property you are buying as that is not it’s purpose.

• Good news re the statement of truth – that means the registration door is still open. The cost of making any amendments should be a lot cheaper than if this involved other parties as for example in amending a legal deed. The statement is one person’s view so hopefully easily amended as appropriate.

• ‘Permissions from mortgage holders’ – this sounds as if the land is registered so if we are to consider amending an existing registration to accommodate the applied for registration then we have to invariably notify the owner and mortgage lender involved to seek their consent or allow them time to object.

Important to also understand that any objections would have to have a basis in law

• I can’t try to cover off all of the comments made here but three stick out for me, namely ‘Perhaps we need a simpler system to mop up these and correct them ready for future generations’; ‘its down to who yells loudest??’; and ‘washing their hands of it and leaving the chips to fall where they may?’

In my view, it is important to recognise that Land Registry’s responsibility is to register title and make such information available to affected/interested parties, primarily to facilitate the buying/selling of properties. It is not an enforcement agency and whilst, yes, we do have the authority attached to the registration process we are not the ultimate enforcer or arbitrator and as you already appreciate that role rests with the courts. And yes that can make things expensive but Land Registry does not make 'land law' and much of it has been in place for decades, if not centuries whilst the costs associated with land law have historically always been seen as expensive but again such costs are not of our making.

• ‘LR definitely prefer to deal with the agent rather than give information to the person who actually paid for the land. Is it me, or is that a bit of red tape reflection on how the common man has been ousted from understanding the process these days’ – the applicant must always be the first point of contact on such things as they are the one applying. Whilst we try not to lose sight of the ‘end customer’, namely the land/property owner we must appreciate two things.

Firstly the applicant is often the legal representative of the end customer and as such there must be a level of professional etiquette applied. I do not view that as ‘ousting’ anyone as presumably the end customer has employed the applicant to act on their behalf. And whilst we are often able to advise on the registration process, as appears to have happened here, we are not legal advisers/solicitors and as mentioned the law around such matters is complex.

And secondly, and invariably because there are multiple interested and/or affected parties involved, keeping things formal helps to ensure that matters are processed correctly and if a dispute or disagreement results there is evidence to back up any decisions made.

I would also add that the registration process around such matters has not altered fundamentally for many years so any understanding, be that the ‘common man’ or anyone else should not have been affected. Land law is very complex and has always been the case. Conveyancing can also be very complex. In an ideal scenario it would be great if everything was less so but the manner in which land law has evolved over the centuries means this is never likely to be so.

• ‘Could you ask an LR employee to send you a sample letter of the type they expect sent to nearby "mortgage holders" and then copy it out the requisite number of times and send it yourself (ie rather than pay a solicitor to do it for you)?’ – as mentioned above the notifications are a registration requirement. Your solicitor does not send them and whilst you are of course at liberty to write to anyone yourself I am not too sure what purpose that would serve as they would fall outside the registration process. The cost of serving such notices is covered by the registration fee as well.

Hopefully my comments have addressed some of the key but general points being made in this thread. And I hope that the specifics involved resolve themselves to everyone's satisfaction.

Olliesuz

Land_Registry_representative wrote: »

It may also help to understand whether this was a conveyancing 'mess up' rather than a Land Registry one although that is not to say that we don't make errors on first registration but I assume that has been explored if the land bought was already registered.

Thank you for all your comments. In regard of the above, the the land has been registered with different owners but the section I bought is a portion of the original, so from that point of view it is a new plot as it were. I suspect previously everyone has used the OS map so naturally when the land registry sent out the registration containing a map no-one has seen before it certainly looks like a LR mess up. in fact, I still feel it is because the original seller actually put in place the boundary fencing which is still in place and now outside the LR's boundary. Thereby creating a nomans land of an area which I will maintain and use as I wish, but will never legally be the registered owner of. I certainly haven't got the resources to start a court action over it; I imagine that would cost thousands. In a way, I guess I have not done so badly as I am certain I will have the use of the entire plot for all the time that I am the owner, and no doubt the next owner after me and so on, but it begs the question, why are the LR ok with not maintaining accurate records? What adds to the complication is in not being able to deal directly with the LR, I am not sure how good my agent,the solicitor is. Having worked off the wrong map himself until several months after completion, and then submitting a statement of truth but without making progress, you will appreciate I have my doubts now. All very unsatisfactory with nowhere to go to sort things out Thank heavens for the forum, at least I can swat up a bit on the subject and hear the stories of others

Olliesuz

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

Olliesuz

Make sure that you get the Register entry (as well as Title Plan) for each property involved. That Register will tell you if they have a mortgage and, if so, who with.

Can I be a right dimbat and ask how you do this? I only received my register entry after completion and it came via the solicitor.....:)

moneyistooshorttomention

You can do so either via the traditional "paper" method or online. So either look up the Land Registry website and its there how to do so online and you can fill in a form there or you can ring and ask them for the appropriate form (think it was form OC1???? - though I couldnt swear to it). You need to fill in one form per property enquired about and pay to do so. Its £3 a shot to do it online. Think it is £7??? if doing it the traditional way on paper.? You can print the form off yourself from their website if you have access to a printer.

You need to make sure you get both the Title Plan AND the Register entry for each property concerned (ie there will be two of those charges to pay per property). I just asked for the Title Plans for neighbouring properties and found only one has a Title Plan. When I had a surveyor look at that Title Plan, he promptly commented that he would have expected there to be a lot of notes with that Title Plan and we had to arrange to get a copy of the Register entry as well for that property to get sight of those notes (hence my knowing that they have a mortgage and who it is with).

I was surprised at that, because, when I had asked for the Title Plan for a neighbour of my previous house, then I had some notes too and saw what their mortgage position was - without having to ask/pay for a second document.

You might be surprised to find just who has got a mortgage and when they took it out. I found, in both cases, that the house-owner concerned had taken out a mortgage recently on their property (not having apparently had to have one to buy the property in the first place).

You DEFINITELY dont need to pay a solicitor to get that for you. Us ordinary members of the public can get this no problem. I'm almost surprised we can obtain that private information on other people so easily, but we can.

EDIT; perhaps the Land Registry Rep - or someone else - could give you a link to the relevant webpage on the LR website for you to access this form? Its easy enough to find it - but would be quicker for you if they could. I cant myself at the moment - because I'm having to use a different web browser at the moment (as summat seems to be wrong with Google).

moneyistooshorttomention

Olliesuz wrote: »

Thank you for all your comments. In regard of the above, the the land has been registered with different owners but the section I bought is a portion of the original, so from that point of view it is a new plot as it were. I suspect previously everyone has used the OS map so naturally when the land registry sent out the registration containing a map no-one has seen before it certainly looks like a LR mess up. in fact, I still feel it is because the original seller actually put in place the boundary fencing which is still in place and now outside the LR's boundary. Thereby creating a nomans land of an area which I will maintain and use as I wish, but will never legally be the registered owner of. I certainly haven't got the resources to start a court action over it; I imagine that would cost thousands. In a way, I guess I have not done so badly as I am certain I will have the use of the entire plot for all the time that I am the owner, and no doubt the next owner after me and so on, but it begs the question, why are the LR ok with not maintaining accurate records? What adds to the complication is in not being able to deal directly with the LR, I am not sure how good my agent,the solicitor is. Having worked off the wrong map himself until several months after completion, and then submitting a statement of truth but without making progress, you will appreciate I have my doubts now. All very unsatisfactory with nowhere to go to sort things out Thank heavens for the forum, at least I can swat up a bit on the subject and hear the stories of others

The one blessing to that is that at least you haven't had a neighbour know equally well as you do that its your land, but sit there squatting on it anyway.

If you do have to use your own land "unofficially" in the event...do make sure you don't leave yourself as open to theft by a squatter as a previous owner/s of my house left me and fence it around etc to protect it from getting stolen.

Olliesuz

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

If you do have to use your own land "unofficially" in the event...do make sure you don't leave yourself as open to theft by a squatter as a previous owner/s of my house left me and fence it around etc to protect it from getting stolen.

No problems there - fence and hedge in place long before my arrival....:)