Confused! Help appreciated. ECP appeal?

darmont

Hi, here are the details.

I parked car in Waitrose Car park on a Sunday which as far as I knew was free. Turns out it has changed fairly recently (must be in last couple of years) to Euro Car Parks to 2 hrs free and you have to buy a £1.50 top up ticket after that even on a Sunday. There is a yellow sign very high up as you drive in, and several around the periphery of car park.

I was in a rush as going to set up for my daughters birthday party at Cafe next to car park, and had big box to carry. Also assumed ok because always parked there for Waitrose with no charge, and it was a Sunday.

PCN Notice issued 21/09/14, letter sent 23/10/14 so over 1 month later. Number plate photographed entering and leaving car park. Entry 13.46, Exit 16.27.

Have a PCN number, and it says I was parked with no valid pay and display / permit, and in breach of the conditions at this site.

Amount due is £90 reduced to £50 if pay within 14 days.

I didn't receive the notice until i got back from half term on 2nd November so my time is nearly up to get the reduction!!


Can I appeal this based on ignorance? Is there any way I could win?

pogofish

If you appeal base on ignorance or any kind of mitigation, you will fail.

Please read the Newbies Sticky carefully to see what actually works and your various options for seeing them off.

Northlakes

Read and read again the NEWBIES thread and follow the process to rid yourself of this fake invoice.

Don't admit who was driving or use any mitigating excuses as they are only interested in your money not your daughters birthday!

Submit first appeal get rejected and then use POPLA code for second appeal then win.

You also detail an out of time notice to keeper which will win in its own right if they don't know who was driving.

darmont

thank you! should i wait for the Notice to keeper or just carry on with the appeal straight away?

Northlakes

You have had the notice to keeper (late) and you should now send the first appeal as per the latest NEWBIES thread.

This first appeal is largely irrelevant as they will reject it and give you a POPLA code but it's all part of the process.

Do not indicate in any way who was driving!

Northlakes

Bloggs PPC
Anystreet
Anytown


Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on the following grounds:

a). The sum does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term. It is a disguised penalty and not commercially justified.
b). As keeper I believe that the signs were not seen, the wording is ambiguous and the predominant purpose of your business model is intended to be a deterrent.
c). There is no evidence that you have any proprietary interest in the land.
d). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA 2012 and also breaches the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Payments) Regs 2013.
e). There was no consideration nor acceptance flowing from both parties and any contract with myself, or the driver, is denied.

The purpose of this communication is threefold:

1. Formal challenge
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn in the absence of evidence. As such, you must either rely on the POFA 2012 or prove beyond any doubt who was driving - or cancel the charge. I strongly urge you to uphold this challenge now or alternatively, send a rejection letter - subject to accepting my claim for costs as clearly stated below, since you have no case. I will then escalate this appeal to the independent appeal service offered by your Trade Body.

2. ''Drop hands'' offer
The extravagant 'parking charge' is baseless but I realise that you may have incurred nominal costs. Equally, I have incurred costs to date, for researching the law, reading your Notice and responding, despite a lack of contract. I calculate both my costs and yours to be under £15 at this early stage, therefore, this is a formal “drop hands” offer. I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days without further expense and I will not pursue you for my costs. If you persist then I will charge in full for my time at £18 per hour plus my expenses.

3. Notice of cancellation of contract
I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged contract which was never properly offered or explained by you. The charge is not acknowledged, is not due and no 'service contract' from you was ever expressly requested by the driver or by me. Neither the driver nor myself gave 'prior express consent' or any consent at all for any contract to exist and it is not for me to pay an extravagant sum just because you chose to foist unexpected and non-negotiated onerous terms upon any driver of my vehicle. This 'contract' is hereby cancelled and any obligations now end. If you offer - and if I decide to use - your IAS or POPLA, then the contract still ends immediately on the date of their decision (whatever the outcome) so my notice of cancellation still applies.

As well as not meeting the requirements of the POFA 2012, you have clearly breached the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Payments) Regs 2013. Even if your contract is found not to be a 'distance contract' (which I say it is), it is a fact that providing the use of a parking bay is a contract which must follow the provisions of these new Regulations. You have failed to provide the required information for consumer contracts in a 'durable medium' in advance and you have failed to obtain 'express agreement' from the driver; a form of specific consent which cannot flow from a sign.

By replying to the challenge, you will also be acknowledging receipt, understanding and acceptance of points 2 and 3 above. If you do not now cancel, then I will be put to unnecessary expense and hours of time in appealing or defending this matter. As such, you will be liable for my costs which are likely to exceed £100 if you ignore the fact I have cancelled the contract, should you now proceed to independent appeal and/or small claims court.

Only reply with a rejection letter if you understand and accept your future liability, since I have already openly indicated the main points of appeal and have pointed out that your contract breaches current UK Regulations which were introduced in 2014 to protect consumers in a consistent manner. I have also cancelled any contract that you may think exists. If you choose to refuse my drop hands offer, you accept liability for my expenses and time wasted on repeating my points at further appeal stage and in court if necessary.

Where sent by post I have obtained proof of posting. Where submitted online/by email I have kept a copy and this communication is clearly received by you unless proved otherwise. I look forward to your considered reply within 35 days and urge you to accept the drop hands offer and accept that I have cancelled any 'contract' because this resolves the dispute without cost.

Yours faithfully,


{the registered keeper's name}

ADD A SQUIGGLE IF POSTING IT - NO NEED TO USE A REAL SIGNATURE


This is the first letter you need,

Northlakes

Bloggs PPC
Anystreet
Anytown


Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on the following grounds:

a). The sum does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term. It is a disguised penalty and not commercially justified.
b). As keeper I believe that the signs were not seen, the wording is ambiguous and the predominant purpose of your business model is intended to be a deterrent.
c). There is no evidence that you have any proprietary interest in the land.
d). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA 2012 and also breaches the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Payments) Regs 2013.
e). There was no consideration nor acceptance flowing from both parties and any contract with myself, or the driver, is denied.

The purpose of this communication is threefold:

1. Formal challenge
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn in the absence of evidence. As such, you must either rely on the POFA 2012 or prove beyond any doubt who was driving - or cancel the charge. I strongly urge you to uphold this challenge now or alternatively, send a rejection letter - subject to accepting my claim for costs as clearly stated below, since you have no case. I will then escalate this appeal to the independent appeal service offered by your Trade Body.

2. ''Drop hands'' offer
The extravagant 'parking charge' is baseless but I realise that you may have incurred nominal costs. Equally, I have incurred costs to date, for researching the law, reading your Notice and responding, despite a lack of contract. I calculate both my costs and yours to be under £15 at this early stage, therefore, this is a formal “drop hands” offer. I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days without further expense and I will not pursue you for my costs. If you persist then I will charge in full for my time at £18 per hour plus my expenses.

3. Notice of cancellation of contract
I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged contract which was never properly offered or explained by you. The charge is not acknowledged, is not due and no 'service contract' from you was ever expressly requested by the driver or by me. Neither the driver nor myself gave 'prior express consent' or any consent at all for any contract to exist and it is not for me to pay an extravagant sum just because you chose to foist unexpected and non-negotiated onerous terms upon any driver of my vehicle. This 'contract' is hereby cancelled and any obligations now end. If you offer - and if I decide to use - your IAS or POPLA, then the contract still ends immediately on the date of their decision (whatever the outcome) so my notice of cancellation still applies.

As well as not meeting the requirements of the POFA 2012, you have clearly breached the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Payments) Regs 2013. Even if your contract is found not to be a 'distance contract' (which I say it is), it is a fact that providing the use of a parking bay is a contract which must follow the provisions of these new Regulations. You have failed to provide the required information for consumer contracts in a 'durable medium' in advance and you have failed to obtain 'express agreement' from the driver; a form of specific consent which cannot flow from a sign.

By replying to the challenge, you will also be acknowledging receipt, understanding and acceptance of points 2 and 3 above. If you do not now cancel, then I will be put to unnecessary expense and hours of time in appealing or defending this matter. As such, you will be liable for my costs which are likely to exceed £100 if you ignore the fact I have cancelled the contract, should you now proceed to independent appeal and/or small claims court.

Only reply with a rejection letter if you understand and accept your future liability, since I have already openly indicated the main points of appeal and have pointed out that your contract breaches current UK Regulations which were introduced in 2014 to protect consumers in a consistent manner. I have also cancelled any contract that you may think exists. If you choose to refuse my drop hands offer, you accept liability for my expenses and time wasted on repeating my points at further appeal stage and in court if necessary.

Where sent by post I have obtained proof of posting. Where submitted online/by email I have kept a copy and this communication is clearly received by you unless proved otherwise. I look forward to your considered reply within 35 days and urge you to accept the drop hands offer and accept that I have cancelled any 'contract' because this resolves the dispute without cost.

Yours faithfully,


{the registered keeper's name}

ADD A SQUIGGLE IF POSTING IT - NO NEED TO USE A REAL SIGNATURE