Unethical sales practises at big well known UK company

Bluebirdman_of_Alcathays

naedanger wrote: »

True

I'm glad we agree on something

naedanger wrote: »

Not necessarily. He has only nothing to worry about if he can prove on the balance of probability that it is true. Even then he could still be sued, just he should then win.

The burden of proof lies with the claimant - if he were sued, this would be his former employer. They would have to prove he was lying, the OP wouldn't have to prove he's telling the truth.

naedanger wrote: »

Is your moral compass working OK?

Perfectly. I'd prefer to keep morals out of business, but as you've brought it up - I wouldn't work for a company I considered immoral for 10 years.

naedanger wrote: »

To quote the OP "You think it OK to withhold information from a customers where their actually debt is false and a customer service agent could zero the debt and they could leave? You think its OK to not tell them that info?? REALLY?????" So do you really think this is ethical?

I find the OP's grammar and sentence construction difficult at times (I accept this may be down to me, English isn't my first language), however what I think he's saying is that customers aren't being told that agents can wipe their debt. Erm, and? I owe my mortgage provider money. They could wipe it if they wanted. They keep choosing not to. Shame that.

naedanger wrote: »

Also the OP seems to be suggesting the company is using inflated sales figures in its accounts e.g here: "Another thing was the faking of the margin we could make as agents. Quite simple really empty property back in landlords hands using no engery, we stuck in 3 year contract with massive notch generated huge margin, but it was fake, figures used for our targets, then went to the top and to the 'city' according to managers (hence why we had to hit targets). But these were made up of fake margin that if property we empty couldn't ever make that money back! Total fraud and yet when I alerted managers and those above them it was covered up and allowed to happen for years, 5 years in fact." Again this could be criminal, as Tescos are well aware.

Wow.

Tesco didn't inflate their sales figures. Not by one penny. They recognised income (albeit a hell of a lot) in the period(s) prior to the period(s) in which that income was generated. They almost certainly already had the £250m in the bank.

If the current situation they're in was down to made up sales figures, I doubt they'd have lasted a week. As it is their share price has stabilised, and they remain the largest retailer in this country. I may be a pedantic accountant, but the distinction is incredibly important.

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/2014/10/02/what-tesco-has-done-and-why-we-should-care/

Back to the OP's employer, sales figures are based on actual sales, not "margin". Lower consuming customers in the energy industry routinely pay higher margin than the larger consumers. A steel manufacturer is not going to pay the same rate as a hairdresser. However, the margin has little to do with the sales figure, as I'm sure you will appreciate.

Assuming the OP's firm is of a reasonable size, their books have to be signed off by auditors. I don't believe for one second that some mythical sales figure is handed up from a salesman and signed off by an auditor, who has their professional reputation to protect. I could of course be wrong in this assumption, in which case why doesn't the OP name the company so they can be judged publicly?

Bluebirdman_of_Alcathays

secretenergysalesman wrote: »

OK to say again, i know about sales, i worked at this company for 10 years and did 5 years sales before that elsewhere, over that time i worked in various different roles within sales.
I used to be able to play pretty fair and help customers where possible but not give stuff away, it was sales and its a process and a negotiation and it can be great fun and very rewarding.
I used to be able to play it fair and 'do the right thing' and earn on average 2-3 k per month bonus, top guys were on 7-10k bonus but did my own thing ad was happy in myself most of the time.
Towards the end though to play fair meant earning less than 500 quid bonus whilst the 'others' were earning 4-5 k bonus per month.
That was unfair as me and some colleagues felt we would have to start doing some questionable things that before we could avoid.
For example getting a customer in debt pleading for help and you just have to either stick them into a binding 3 year contract on massive over inflated rates as they are stuck and can go nowhere. That isn't sales that i know mate, that's a person with nowhere else to go but your way which is wrong, its wrong for the business as they would just get in more debt or even go under!! So much for a 3 year contract if they go under...come on its not hard to work out that agents to managers were on the gravy train and didn't give a fig about anything but themselves.

Sales was "x is offering me 10.2p per unit"
ok sir well we can do 11.3 but with that you get the peace of mind of a big company and great customer service no hassles etc etc...blah blah blah...

"oh ok great fair enough we'll stay"

not

"x is offering 10.2p unit"
but sir, you cant leave anyway as you are behind on your payments, you still owe us 600 quid, what i can do for you today so you dont go onto the out of contract rates and to stop you getting cut off is give you a rate of 19.5p per unit...but at least its fixed for 3 years for peace of mind sir...
"but thats horrendous X says 10.2p!!"
but sir THAT is your best option right now, you cant go to X....
"well i suppose i'll have to then as cash flow means i cant pay off the debt right now"


great just need to run through a few things sir........

boom.

Not sure there's much to say to the "my colleague is earning more than me" issue - that's just sales I'm afraid.

As for the specific point- in business if you can't pay your debts, your suppliers will stop offering you advantageous rates. If a business has a £600 debt, and they recognise that by not paying it they're going to incur a ridiculously expensive energy tariff, then they should pay off the debt!

If they literally cannot afford to pay it (after realising assets), then they're trading while insolvent - leaving the directors personally liable for the businesses debt and/or disqualification.

naedanger

Bluebirdman_of_Alcathays wrote: »

The burden of proof lies with the claimant - if he were sued, this would be his former employer. They would have to prove he was lying, the OP wouldn't have to prove he's telling the truth.

Wrong. "In defamation cases, however, the defendant is presumed guilty and their claims to be false, unless they can prove them to be true."
http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/Article_Directory/Defamation_Law/The_ins_and_outs_of_defamation_law

Perfectly. I'd prefer to keep morals out of business, but as you've brought it up - I wouldn't work for a company I considered immoral for 10 years.

If you think it is ethical to fiddle sales figures or exploit people who are trapped in debt then your moral compass is different from mine. Neither would I work for 10 years for a company that had unethical practices.

I find the OP's grammar and sentence construction difficult at times (I accept this may be down to me, English isn't my first language), however what I think he's saying is that customers aren't being told that agents can wipe their debt. Erm, and? I owe my mortgage provider money. They could wipe it if they wanted. They keep choosing not to. Shame that.

The OP is saying the agents are exploiting customers who are in debt. Seems unethical to me. I also think he may also be saying that some customers are led to believe they are in debt when this is not actually the case (e.g. because of issues with their billing). These customers are then told they cannot leave and their prices unreasonably increased. Again this seems unethical and possibly fraudulent.

Tesco didn't inflate their sales figures. Not by one penny. They recognised income (albeit a hell of a lot) in the period(s) prior to the period(s) in which that income was generated. They almost certainly already had the £250m in the bank.

Recognising sales in a year prior to that in which they should be recognised is inflating their sales figures. It results in reported sales for the year being higher then they should have been.

If the current situation they're in was down to made up sales figures, I doubt they'd have lasted a week. As it is their share price has stabilised, and they remain the largest retailer in this country. I may be a pedantic accountant, but the distinction is incredibly important.

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/2014/10/02/what-tesco-has-done-and-why-we-should-care/

Back to the OP's employer, sales figures are based on actual sales, not "margin". Lower consuming customers in the energy industry routinely pay higher margin than the larger consumers. A steel manufacturer is not going to pay the same rate as a hairdresser. However, the margin has little to do with the sales figure, as I'm sure you will appreciate.

Assuming the OP's firm is of a reasonable size, their books have to be signed off by auditors. I don't believe for one second that some mythical sales figure is handed up from a salesman and signed off by an auditor, who has their professional reputation to protect. I could of course be wrong in this assumption, in which case why doesn't the OP name the company so they can be judged publicly?

Books being signed off by auditors is no guarantee of anything.

I am well aware of the difference between sales and margin. I also know that if I can sell the same volume of goods for higher margin then (all else being equal) I will also have increased the sales figure.

I suspect the OP is not naming the company because he is not certain he can prove what he is saying is true. And is wise enough not to take your assurances for granted.

(Personally I wish the OP had been careful enough to only say what he knew he could prove to be true and then named the company.)

Bark01

Can the OP at least confirm if its one of these OPUS, BES or Meter registration service

secretenergysalesman

The only reason some of my grammar and spelling is a bit rubbish is because i'm typing very fast and when i can due to having a very busy life right now, all this forum pedantic grammar police stuff frankly i could care less for. If people want to try to belittle or think they are winning due to picking up on this then fire away, enjoy your moment.

OK so far ive a very good link to ofgem and have emailed them, i'm also sending an email to the MD of this company who takes a very public right on approach to his role and has a twitter account and a public email address for 'any concerns a customer may have, mail me personally', so i will and i shall raise these points as EVERYTHING they preach is anti what they do...that to me is unethical in itself, they preach one thing then expect agents to do the opposite up untill i left at least anyway.
Aside from that the rest is me just basically defending why i've even felt the need to whistle blow.
Like i said a million times i was a very very successful and skilled sales person, some bankers are great bankers some are bad some are cheats, no different to energy sales, just when the cheats earn more and get away with it then that's unfair however much people want to paint me as being a bitter person. 10k bonus per month is not great if i couldn't look myself in the mirror. :A

The reactions from same on here were the same reactions i got when i raised this at work to managers etc, then it was just bullying and little things adding up to making me feel utter rubbish and that i was going to lose everyone their jobs basically, so then people started to ostracize me.

Do people think benefit cheats are unethical? or just playing the game better than everyone else doing it 'right'...?

secretenergysalesman

Bark01 wrote: »

Can the OP at least confirm if its one of these OPUS, BES or Meter registration service

nope. there is a clue somewhere in one of my posts...

secretenergysalesman

Bluebirdman_of_Alcathays wrote: »

Not sure there's much to say to the "my colleague is earning more than me" issue - that's just sales I'm afraid.

As for the specific point- in business if you can't pay your debts, your suppliers will stop offering you advantageous rates. If a business has a £600 debt, and they recognise that by not paying it they're going to incur a ridiculously expensive energy tariff, then they should pay off the debt!

If they literally cannot afford to pay it (after realising assets), then they're trading while insolvent - leaving the directors personally liable for the businesses debt and/or disqualification.

OK so a customer a business has just moved into a property, they get an historical inaccurate bill for thousands as previous tenant wasn't paying, new customer calls the 'help line' number, they get passed to a sales agent who is on a massive target, the customer then could be advised that the bill is most likely wrong, they could have meter readings to us and we could sort out any issues, but instead agent doesn't advise that and goes for the sale on 3 year contract on huge over blown rates.
Once that occurs agent has the sale and margin. Sale is legit, way they went about it is wrong.

But even customers in actual real debt still deserve some respect if not help do they not? I felt they did at least.

PlutoinCapricorn

It is important to be a good advertisement for your cause so that 'the enemy' will have fewer excuses for not taking you seriously. This includes presenting your case clearly. Even if you do not name names, giving people on here more examples of unethical sales techniques is very useful. The 'Praise, Vents and Warnings' board is often used for this purpose: Niagara Therapy UK and their sales to vulnerable old people is being discussed on there.

secretenergysalesman

PlutoinCapricorn wrote: »

It is important to be a good advertisement for your cause so that 'the enemy' will have fewer excuses for not taking you seriously. This includes presenting your case clearly. Even if you do not name names, giving people on here more examples of unethical sales techniques is very useful. The 'Praise, Vents and Warnings' board is often used for this purpose: Niagara Therapy UK and their sales to vulnerable old people is being discussed on there.

I'll check it out, ofgem are very interested and want to speak to me on the phone.
I'll let you know if the MD has anything to say to my email

The guys who are saying i'm in the wrong on this one are coming from it with the approach that sales has where any sign of what i'm showing is a sign of weakness, in sales thats not wanted, it is cut throat but you don't HAVE to be a !!!! to be a salesman but it helps, i should know i worked with some right "£$£%'s real vile foul people who would do anything, cheat, lie, rip off the company, rip off customers ignore guildlines we all had to sign, said vile things about customers they ripped off etc etc.
Now when i finally had enough and 'blew the whistle" i expected at least some changes i.e. stopping this and the loop holes with fake margin etc etc..instead I got picked on an nothing changed in fact for a time it got worse and they just increased the targets to suck more people into the trap of cheating!

If standing up to what i believed in makes me a weak little person who shouldn't be on a sales floor by not wanting to destroy peoples small business's...well so be it... the company in question would not condone this behavior publically and i'm sure the MD won't, but reality it was happening for years and years. Either they knew at the top..or they weren't doing their job properly..either way its bad management..

PlutoinCapricorn

The OP's user name reminds me of that old R White's commercial "I'm a secret lemonade drinker"! Whistle blowing makes me think of David Shayler, journalist and MI5 officer, who now wears women's clothes and likes to be called 'Delores'.

Seriously SES, perhaps you should do some research into what happens when someone blows the whistle. Much of it is predictable. You said this:

"Now when i finally had enough and 'blew the whistle" i expected at least some changes i.e. stopping this and the loop holes with fake margin etc etc..instead I got picked on an nothing changed in fact for a time it got worse and they just increased the targets to suck more people into the trap of cheating!"

I know myself what it is like to naively expect changes for the better - the more fool me.

If you Google whistle blowing in the NHS, you will read about persecution, accusations of being mentally ill...there is the British Ambassador to Uzbekistan who lost his job... there is no end to it.

What matters most is whether or not the person doing the exposing is telling the truth.