Company car: Is NTH valid if NTK late

GuntherGas

Firstly,a big thanks to the regular users of this forum (Coupon-mad, Umkomaas, candy,stroma et al) for the excellent advice on the newbies thread. Keep up the greatwork! :T:T:beer:
I will be using the NEWBIES template but have discovered a couple of additional POFA violations re NTK and NTH which I want to check with you guys if they are good grounds to include.

Casefacts (apologies for the long post but I wanted to put everything in perspective):

1. I have a company car leased through a FleetManagement Compant (let’s call them FleetCo)

2. 2 months back wifey was dropping groceriesshe bought at Tesco’s that day from the back entrance of the building we livein. She was alone and had our 6-week old infant daughter in her arms. The backof the building has parking which is managed by the PPC – only a few flats inthe building have allocated parking here and vehicles that have permits issuedby PPC can park in marked bays. She was there for less than 5 min when this guy– no uniform or ID – jumps in front of the car and starts clicking photos. Whenshe protested and explained what she was doing he said it was ok and she couldgo. No PCN handed to her nor was anything affixed to the windscreen. The photoson the PPC’s website just show the car parked near the entrance door and mywife standing next to it with the baby. She drove off under the impression thateverything was fine.

3. Flashback to present day – I receive a Noticeto Hirer from a Debt Collector (DC is a BPA member) asking for a penalty chargeof £120 saying they are acting on behalf of their client (the PPC that managesthe parking – also a BPA member). The alleged offence is “Not parked whollywithin bay”. There are no marked bays for loading/unloading so it’s misleading.The signage on the site (see exact wording below) says the maximum charge is£100 reduced to £60 if paid within 14 days – I wonder where they got the £120figure from? :mad:

4. On checking with FleetCo, I find that thedate on the NTK is a full 34 days after the date of the alleged offence andsince no PCN was issued, they should have received it within 15 days of allegedoffence as per para 9 of schedule 4 POFA for keeper liability to apply, right? But the numpties who work atFleetCo didn’t bother to check with me and happily complied with NTK by sharingmy details with DC, naming me as the hirer:mad::mad::mad:


Exactwording from signage (in blue font against white background):

Warning.This land is private property. Parking conditions apply 24 hours 7 days a week.Failure to comply with the parking conditions below will result in a £100parking charge notice being reduced to £60 if paid within 14 days. Vehicles parkedin this area must park in the correct marked bay and clearly display a validPPC permit in the windscreen.


Myquestions – would appreciate advice on these:

a) If the NTK is invalid under 9(4) of POFA thenread together with para 13 can I appeal that NTH is invalid and ask the DC andPPC to effectively !!!!!! off? I don’t have to identify the driver :cool:

b) The NTH itself doesn’t follow the formatrequired in para 14 of POFA – is this good enough on it’s own to get thisthrown out of the window at POPLA?

Ishall write to both the DC and their “client” the PPC. Should I wait till I getclose to day 21 of the NTH?

Apartfrom point (a) if you guys think it’s a valid ground for appeal, I shall also includethe other grounds of appeal from the Newbie post (GEOPL, insufficient signage,no contract with driver, no authority to impose charges, etc.) to cover thebases for a potential POPLA. I will also cite violation of BPA Codes of Practice13 and 9 re grace period and professionalism (the staff didn’t have a uniform and hisstyle of jumping in front of the wife and taking photos of her with the babyand the car without asking or explaining who he was should certainly beconsidered harassment, isn’t it?)

Isthere anything else I should include in my NTH reply/appeal to the DC and PPC?

Iwould like to send a strongly worded rant to the landowner and the PPC for thePPC staff’s unprofessional conduct and accuse them of harassing a bonafideresident/woman with a baby in hand/etc. – what legal provisions may I cite? Isthere a template I could use to get the message across?

Thanksin advance. I have just over 10 days before day 21 of my NTH runs out sowould appreciate your advice.

Any other info you guys need?

Coupon-mad

GuntherGas wrote: »

Iwould like to send a strongly worded rant to the landowner and the PPC for thePPC staff’s unprofessional conduct and accuse them of harassing a bonafideresident/woman with a baby in hand/etc. – what legal provisions may I cite? Isthere a template I could use to get the message across?

Save it until it's over and you've won. Yes there are examples of good complaints in a sticky thread 'Successful Complaints about PPCs' but that's for later!

On checking with FleetCo, I find that thedate on the NTK is a full 34 days after the date of the alleged offence andsince no PCN was issued, they should have received it within 15 days of allegedoffence as per para 9 of schedule 4 POFA for keeper liability to apply, right? But the numpties who work atFleetCo didn’t bother to check with me and happily complied with NTK by sharing my details with DC, naming me as the hirer

That's a good thing for you and fits with the BVRLA advice to their members (lease hire firms). Lots of silly Fleet firms pay these and then expect the hirer to cough up!

So now you have a Notice to Hirer, just send representations to that MAYBE using the template in the newbies thread but changing it to 'hirer' instead of 'keeper'. But I would actually send a naïve appeal at this stage, softly softly catchee monkey! See below!

I shall write to both the DC

No don't write to the Debt Collector. Ignore them!

and their “client” the PPC. Should I wait till I get close to day 21 of the NTH?

No don't wait, just send the appeal, referring to the Notice to Hirer. You 'could' leave all wording as shown in the example in the Newbies thread, or remove some of it if you deliberately want the PPC to think you are naïve and they'll more likely send a POPLA code without argument!! If it were me I would write a naïve appeal saying 'I have received your Notice to Hirer and I think your charge is a joke. My wife was carrying our baby from the car and the attendant didn't even have a uniform on and didn't even issue any PCN, he told her she could leave so she moved the car. Please cancel this charge because it seems unfair and how do you explain the lack of uniformed personnel and no PCN on the windscreen?' !

Don't ask for a POPLA code, don't come across as a knowledgeable appellant...yet!

Can you show us the NTK and the NTH (even if you have to ask the Fleet Co for that NTK)? I want to see if it's claiming a PCN was served to the driver. I doubt your NTH does but I want to see the NTK as well. Without a windscreen PCN there is no keeper liability. It's great that you weren't driving, as it leaves you as the 'hirer/keeper' (not liable)! All you need is a POPLA code.

Both sides of both documents. Post a broken link to a photobucket or tinypic link (i.e. change the http to hxxp because as a newbie here, you cannot yet show us working links).

Was this Park Direct by any chance? Or VCS?

GuntherGas

Thank you Coupon-mad for the superfast reply. You’re a star! :cool::A

I shall go ahead with the soft appeal to PPC as suggested. The DC is Parking Collection Services and the PPC is Parking Ticketing Limited.

Below are the links to the documents you requested. They mention in both documents that the PNC was affixed on the windscreen but that seems to be standard wording since the photos on the PPC’s website are proof nothing was put on the windscreen.

NTK Front hxxp://i57.tinypic.com/2w7jrja.png

NTK Back hxxp://i60.tinypic.com/fok37l.png

NTH Front hxxp://i61.tinypic.com/262a5j9.png

NTH Back hxxp://i57.tinypic.com/o0rr5c.jpg

...My wife was carrying our baby from the car and the attendant didn't even have a uniform on and didn't even issue any PCN...

Q: Can the PPC reply with Mrs GuntherGas at my address and start pursuing my wife if I mention her as the driver in my soft appeal?

No don't write to the Debt Collector. Ignore them!

Q: Oddly enough (or could be part of PPC’s strategy) all communication (NTK and NTH) has come from the DC not the PPC. Please excuse my naivety but if I ignore DC and appeal only to PPC, can the DC then hold me liable for ignoring NTH and exceeding the 28 day time limit?

Thanks in advance for your suggestions. I can’t thank you enough for helping me and scores of other hapless victims of these fake PCN scams.

Umkomaas

NTK Front http://i57.tinypic.com/2w7jrja.png

NTK Back http://i60.tinypic.com/fok37l.png

NTH Front http://i61.tinypic.com/262a5j9.png

NTH Back http://i57.tinypic.com/o0rr5c.jpg

Coupon-mad

Can the PPC reply with Mrs GuntherGas at my address and start pursuing my wife if I mention her as the driver in my soft appeal?

Nope, they'd need you to name her and give an address (a requirement of the POFA). You could always put 'my partner'.

GuntherGas

I have sent the soft appeal to the PPC today (e-mail and by post with proof of posting). Will post my next update when I receive their response.

GuntherGas

Just received letter from Parking Collection Services (DC appointed by the PPC) that they have cancelled my penalty charge notice in response to my (soft) appeal :beer::j:j

Below is the appeal letter text in case someone would like to use.

Appeal submitted online (via this e-mail) and by post with proof of posting on DDMMYY to

PPC Name
Address
Postcode

To whom it may concern

Subject: Appeal against the charge issued to the vehicle with registration XXXX, your reference YYYYY, parking charge reference ZZZZZ

I recently received a ‘Notice to the Hirer’ dated DD/MM/YY from DC who claim they are acting for you and I believe that this is a sham notice. I was not the driver and am responding to the notice issued to me.

My partner was carrying our six week old baby from the car to the building when your staff, who was not in uniform, took some photos and asked her to move the vehicle. The vehicle was immediately removed and no PCN was issued or affixed to the windscreen of the car. The time-stamped photos on your own website (attached to this e-mail) are proof of the above and in one photo she can be clearly seen standing next to the vehicle holding the baby.

Therefore, please cancel this unfair charge. How do you explain personnel with no uniform and no PCN on the windscreen?
Any further correspondence from you or anyone claiming to act on your behalf, other than the cancellation of the parking charge itself, will be considered harassment.

Yours,

XYZ

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Thanks to Coupon-mad once again! :A

Coupon-mad

Well done!