What type of heating system

Davegeo

Hi all,
I'm looking for opinions on what to do with my heating system, to get the holy grail of cheap and easy to run as well as supplying good amounts of hot water reasonably quickly.
Of course I realise there are likely to be compromises to some of these, but it's worth a try! Also, though I'm looking for ssomething that's cheap to run, I am willing to pay for the privilege.
So my house is a 10 year old detached house, (with 1 bathroom, 1 Ensuite with shower, a kitchen sink and a downstairs toilet sink) heated by a Glowworm Micron 60FF and 14 radiators (most of which have TRVs) , hot water being supplied by the same boiler via a Megaflo tank. This is all controlled by a Honeywell CN70 controller, which allows 3 time slots a day at a temperature set by a dial thermostat in the hallway.
There's four of us, including 2 young boys and the house is empty only two days of the week.
I like the flow of hot water that I'm currently getting and the lack of time I have to wait for it, but I'm concerned that keeping the water isn't as efficient as heating it up when it's needed. It's also difficult to work into my other requirement - home automation. I want to have much more control over the heating in every room via a wireless controlled TRV and a room stat, with programs that can flex to fit my requirements.
So things I'm pondering are:

Is it worth replacing the boiler with a more efficient one?
If I did replace the boiler, what type is best, system, combi, storage combi?
Which home automation heating system is zonable enough without breaking the bank and (if I have a system boiler) works with hot water?
Are electric instant water heaters underneath the sinks a good idea?

I know the plumbers amongst you will slate combi boilers, but I'm wondering if the right one will fit the above.

Thanks in advance!

- Dave

Pincher

Surely you are just showing off.


The only way up is Passivhaus, or a cottage in a National Park with free firewood, and a lake where Scarlett Johnasson swims nude.

molerat

If it aint broke don't fix it.

You will not save any money replacing a working system. It is not cost effective and certainly not green. Any money you save on fuel costs will be more than eaten up by capital outlay and maintenance costs and as for the green cost of manufacturing, installing and maintaining a new system !!!

matelodave

If the boiler is working OK then you won't save much by spending a grand or more on a new one.

You don't need to keep your water tank hot all day, just heat it when you need hot water - make sure both it and the surrounding pipework are well insulated and try heating for an hour or so before you get up so you've got hot water for your morning ablutions and then just give it another boost in the evening if you need a bit more.

The optimum is to avoid the boiler kicking in and out all day as you'll waste heat warming up the boiler & pipework likewise a hot water tank will also lose heat so there's no benefit in keeping it hot all night either.
Make sure you don't waste hot water either - the less you use the longer it lasts between heating cycles. Short draw-offs to rinse hands and stuff wastes heat as well because you end up leaving hot water in the pipes. Wash hands & stuff in cold water where possible. Take shorter showers or have shallower baths and fewer of them. Fit flow restrictors on your taps and shower (a lot of water companies give them away free).

An electric under the sink unit will cost you 3-4 times as much to heat as your gas system although you might use slightly less hot water.

You need to decide what sort of control you need on your system and how integrated you want it to be. Do you want to be able to turn a rad on in the bedroom or bathroom whilst you are on your way home from work or do you want it to just get on with it with a central control at home.


We've got separate wireless programmable thermostats for each room (8 in total) to control the underfloor heating loops in the rooms and although its a bit of a faff when the clocks go back/forwards they just sit there and do their job with minimal interference. Batteries need changing every two years or so and it takes a few minute to go round and set them all to frost protection mode if we go away. It would be nice if they were al integrated but the cost four years ago was prohibitive and there weren't so may systems available then (it probably cost us about £800 when we had it installed and I'm sure it won't save anything like that for a long long time)

There are lots of systems out there, all with varying degrees of automation and connectivity - just Google them.
New and better stuff is being developed all the time so you'll have to research what you want as it will probably not only be obsolete in a year or two it will also be significantly cheaper.

Are you capable of putting it all together or will you need expert assistance to get it all up and running as that will make a big difference to the costs

Davegeo

Ok, I'll clarify my priorities a bit. I'm less bothered about changing the water situation than I am changing the heating controls. I am more than happy with how quickly I can get hot water and if the loss of heat from the tank isn't really anything to worry about then that's fine (though of course the space the tank takes up would be a useful side benefit, if not a deciding factor).
No, what I really want is to be able to fine tune and adjust with minimal hassle (ideally from a phone or tabletl, the temperature in each individual room, so everywhere is as comfortable as possible and the boiler is doing the least it needs to. Saving money on outgoings is important, but I realise that the payoff may be a number of years down the line (we will be staying here a decade or two).
The problem with bringing home automation into it is that nearly all of the options currently available will only control heating, not water, and those that do control water are either not multi zone or very expensive.

- Dave

Pincher

Underfloor heating with motorised manifold, which allows per room control. You can get wireless room stats, but you still have to lift the floor boards to put the UFH in.

Davegeo

Yeah, much as UFH appeals to me, there's no way I'm getting that much upheaval signed off by the other half, eespecially since we're still recovering from the move here a few weeks ago!

- Dave

System

Davegeo wrote: »

.
No, what I really want is to be able to fine tune and adjust with minimal hassle (ideally from a phone or tabletl, the temperature in each individual room, so everywhere is as comfortable as possible and the boiler is doing the least it needs to. Saving money on outgoings is important, but I realise that the payoff may be a number of years down the line (we will be staying here a decade or two).
The problem with bringing home automation into it is that nearly all of the options currently available will only control heating, not water, and those that do control water are either not multi zone or very expensive.

- Dave

You get what you pay for - I am afraid. Home heating automation needs as much research as any other energy-saving initiative. I have installed the Honeywell Evohome system and whilst I am confident that it will save me money, I do not see a short-term return. That said, the £91 hot water kit is already saving me about £4 per month on my gas bill. I have no commercial or personal links to The EvoHome Shop but this blog is worth a read:

'When purchasing a ‘smart’ heating control system, most people just want to compare products and the savings these smart heating products will make. I ask the question ‘how is this actually possible’, when no two heating controllers are the same, no two homes are the same and most ‘smart’ heating products are fresh out of R&D labs!

As an installer of heating products for the last 12 years, I have been very much converted to ‘team smart zoning’. While Nest and Hive are pushing single zone room thermostat control of heating systems, Honeywell are in full swing of promoting ‘smart zoning’. The problem with replacing an old room thermostats with a ‘connected thermostat’ is that the old thermostat was probably normally located in the worst room (the hallway or landing) and this is supposed to accurately control the heating temperature of your home!? Anyone who has been in an underfloor heated home will understand, room-by-room control of a heating system is a nice thing to have (and you thought it was just because it was underfloor heated!).

There are many ‘smart’ heating products on the market to choose from and quite rightly Honeywell evohome has been thrown into the limelight. Ironically this has only really occurred due to the hard sell and mass advertising of Google ‘Nest’ and British Gas ‘Hive’, however a little known fact is that ‘smart’ systems are not a new thing! Honeywell evohome was first launched in October 2010 and is an extremely proven and reliable wireless product based on years of experience and control know-how.

In 2013, the Honeywell evohome range was restyled and relaunched for 2014 to coincide with the new found interest in ‘smart’ heating controls. Amongst installers, Honeywell heating controls are considered one of the best; reliability and longevity offset the slightly higher price tag in the value for money stakes.

There is no doubt in my mind that when used and scheduled correctly, Honeywell evohome in ‘smart zone’ form will save you energy and money when compared to a traditional system comprising of a Twin Channel Programmer, Single Zone Room Thermostat and Thermostatic Radiator Valves (TRV’s). The whole concept of programming your own heating schedule (the basis that still remains with the evohome system) must not be negated for ‘intelligence’ and I believe more comfort and money savings will be made in this way.

For those interested, TACMA Research carried out in July 2013 by the University of Salford showed for the first time the effects of energy saving controls in a domestic property. The saving potential is certainly not to be sniffed at, with 40% being the estimated saving potential between badly controlled heating systems and well controlled ones.

For me especially, there is a new found enjoyment as a ‘Smart Heating Installer’ installing heating system upgrades. Gone are the bad old days of crude heating controls and poorly functioning systems and I firmly believe that when we look back at 2014, ‘smart zoning’ and better control of heating systems will be seen as one of the important steps taken towards combating fuel poverty and climate change.'

source: theevohomeshop.co.uk

matelodave

What advantage are you going to get by tweaking your hot water tank temperature on a daily or hourly basis - if you change your boiler to a combi then there's even less reason to do it as you only heat the water "on demand" so if you aren't using it then it won't be heated anyway.
AS I said above, understand what you want and then research what's available to do it.

System

matelodave wrote: »

What advantage are you going to get by tweaking your hot water tank temperature on a daily or hourly basis - if you change your boiler to a combi then there's even less reason to do it as you only heat the water "on demand" so if you aren't using it then it won't be heated anyway.
AS I said above, understand what you want and then research what's available to do it.

I don't tweak anything: it is set and forget. The HW kit maintains the water temp between 60 and 50C which, in turn, reduces the frequency of the boiler firing. Previously, the boiler would fire up each time HW was used. HW reheat is available early AM and early evening. The user can choose the range of temps and the on/off periods. A combi boiler would not be suitable for my home as we have an unvented HW system.

CashStrapped

I came across this rather interesting blog.

I cannot confirm nor deny it's findings, but it makes for an interesting read.

http://energy-surprises.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/combi-boiler-versus-hot-water-tank.html