Etoro while on Benefits

Finley

Scenario:

A disabled neighbour has now had to sell his car as he is now no longer able to drive.

From this sale he has about £700.

He invest this £700 at Etoro.

At 11.59am it is worth a virtual £300 and at 12.01pm it is worth £1000 and when he makes his call to the DWP at 12.30 it is currently worth £1.

So what exactly do you declare as capital ?

bowlhead99

Finley wrote: »

Scenario:

A disabled neighbour has now had to sell his car as he is now no longer able to drive.

From this sale he has about £700.

He invest this £700 at Etoro.

At 11.59am it is worth a virtual £300 and at 12.01pm it is worth £1000 and when he makes his call to the DWP at 12.30 it is currently worth £1.

So what exactly do you declare as capital ?

What time did you sign the form declaring your capital?

Presumably you can keep records to support what you declare. That would seem to be sensible.

Of course, selling a car for £700 and then 'investing' it in something whose value can change by £700 in two minutes or by £999 in 29 minutes might not be sensible if you or your 'neighbour' need to live on handouts.

Finley

bowlhead99 wrote: »

might not be sensible if you or your 'neighbour' need to live on handouts.

So is someone that has committed a crime and serving a prison sentence are they living on tax payers handouts?

I have no idea where you get this idea that those that have become sick and disabled after spending years paying Tax that they are living on handouts and to be thought of and live a worse life than someone that has committed a crime as if they are spongers.

Bring back Victorian work houses maybe?

If you wish to express your opinion of bashing the vulnerable then take it to general discussion as you opinion is not based on facts or of any help or value to this thread.

Finley

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcRUqBm9GFI

youtube.com/watch?v=hcRUqBm9GFI

Etoro was mention on a BBC program if anyone is interested.

bowlhead99

Finley wrote: »

So is someone that has committed a crime and serving a prison sentence are they living on tax payers handouts?

Yes. The taxpayers are paying for their food and lodging and supervision and protection from the potentially violent criminals around them etc etc ; they are not paying for that out of their own independent income.

But I don't see what on earth that has got to do with any of the questions you have asked or any of the responses you've received above. As an aside, the people serving prison sentences are probably not gambling £700 per minute on etoro, but nobody is comparing criminals to non criminals here.

I have no idea where you get this idea that those that have become sick and disabled after spending years paying Tax that they are living on handouts and to be thought of and live a worse life than someone that has committed a crime as if they are spongers.

*You* might have that idea about whether they are second class citizens or spongers, I didn't suggest anything of the sort, and it is only you who brought up criminals for some reason.

I don't judge people for being unfortunate enough to need benefits to get by. I am lucky enough to be relatively healthy, have a job, be able to drive a car etc. But if someone is not able to get enough income from employment to live a comfortable lifestyle, but instead needs to receive some sort of means-tested benefit to get by, then it is perfectly reasonable for me to caution against them gambling on etoro, because when they lose it they can't go out and get some replacement income by working tomorrow.

The fact that they rely, for all or part of their income, on money 'handed out' by the state, rather than independently earned from their own efforts, means it is unwise for them to gamble it away, because when it's gone it's gone. When I gamble my £700 in two minutes and lose, I can just go and earn another £700, or fall back on the various other £700s I have saved or invested elsewhere. Whereas, someone on benefits is going to have to wait for however long it is before DWP hands them out some more money, and if the benefits are means tested it presumably means they don't have another hundred bundles of £700s sitting around somewhere that they can fall back on.

I'm not suggesting someone on benefits hasn't contributed taxes over their lifetime, or is deliberately on the benefits, or is a criminal or worse. I'm simply suggesting that they, or anyone else, don't shouldn't use etoro unless they have so much money that their potential losses would not affect their lifestyle or increase their need to have state support. This is after all, a 'money saving expert' forum and gambling when you need someone to hand you your next piece of income because you can't work for it, is dangerous.

If you wish to express your opinion of bashing the vulnerable then take it to general discussion

Where did I bash the vulnerable?

If the people in question (such as you or your neighbour?) are vulnerable ,why are they using etoro and risking the value of their capital changing several times per day at the whim of the markets while they fill out a form to request more benefits? If the reason they are doing that is because they don't appreciate the risk they are taking on, and think that it's a great way to get them out of their low income, low assets situation, then they probably need some education rather than to be encouraged with their etoro plan.

as you opinion is not based on facts or of any help or value to this thread.

You requested information about declaring certain types of assets for the purposes of benefits. I gave you direct links to government guidance notes that laid out the principles, to assist you with assessing the situation so that you would not need to "squeeze the lion's paw" at DWP without being armed with the facts about how they view certain activities.

You didn't say thanks for any of that or even say that you had read it. You just came up with a theoretical situation about your neighbour who was no longer able to drive and had to sell his car (presumably the money recovered will be needed to provide him an alternative transport solution over the rest of his life, but for some reason he is choosing to gamble it somewhere that it could be lost in half an hour... but I digress). You asked how you would value the trading account for the form when the value fluctuates from time to time - which value would you take? The answer depends on when you are filling out the form.

You should take the most recent value you have, so that the form you are signing is a good reflection of reality at the time you sign it. I also suggested you keep records. Perhaps a snapshot account statement of open positions at that point in time, or a screenshot. That would mean that you would be well positioned to answer queries about your assets if your form is questioned.

Again, you didn't say thanks for any of that or acknowledge the help and assistance. You just said that my posts did not add any value to the thread and that I was bashing the vulnerable.

I guess you are just judging the thread as a ten out of ten if you get the answer you want to hear, which is "I claim benefits and trade on etoro and don't declare my assets and DWP say they are fine with that". And you're judging the thread as a zero out of ten if you get any advice you don't want to hear or any pointers to guidance that you actually have to go and read yourself. So, I guess there is no point me sticking around on this thread. I'm not going to 'take it to general discussion' because I don't have anything to generally discuss. I'm just a guy trying to help people with their specific financial questions, but it seems they don't want me to. I'll get over it.

kangoora

I'm struggling to understand what you are looking for here. Presumably your friend is interested in 'making money'.

If everything goes well then he will make money and then have to declare the capital which may affect means tested benefits. If it doesn't go well and he loses it all I'm pretty sure the DWP would view it as pretty much the same as going to the bookies and gambling it away.

Picking a favourable point in time to say 'Look, my assets are below 'x' amount' seems to be if not breaking the law on declaring assets, then certainly bending it to breaking point because at some point you 'had' capital, you just chose to invest (gamble) in something that's extremely volatile.

I could do the same by going to the bookies and placing 20 bets and then saying, 'Hey, I've only got a quid left in my pocket so that's my total capital', and 20 minutes later have doubled my cash by an outsider romping home.

Regardless, I think your question is less about investments and more about how to avoid losing means tested benefits - I suggest you ask the same question on the Benefits and Tax Credits forum where you may get the answer you are looking for.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=139

colsten

kangoora wrote: »

I'm struggling to understand what you are looking for here.

It's probably just a shameless plug for etoro, so best if we let this thread die.

sorcerer

Finley wrote: »

Thanks all for trying to help but i need to speak to someone that is actually using Etoro while on benefits as obviously it's not something you can just guess at.

I wondered how you can declare something that is a constant moving target as by the time you have declared it you may have double the assets or have lost the lot as it's not real money that is attainable until you withdraw it.

A neighbour that is a retired accountant suggested that as it's basically a virtual digital agreement between you and the stockbroker that acts on your behalf on virtual stock and money that you might only need to declare it when it becomes real money that you have actually withdrawn into your bank account.

But he's been retired for like 30 years and is just guessing like everyone else that i have spoken to so far.

If that was the case the money in my Stocks and Shares ISA couldn't not be regarded as capital since it's held in Shares and isn't "real" money.

sorcerer

Masomnia wrote: »

I don't know how it really works.

Is it spreadbetting? That's not taxable income, so doesn't need to be declared. But if you have cash in the account you would have to declare that if it takes you over the threshold.

If it's changing a lot, I'd probably just declare whatever it is at the end of each month. That's something you could clarify that with the benefits people.

Etoro is a kind of FaceBook for trading mainly in Forex, you find somebody you like, and your trades then match theirs. But their are a lot of issues with it, not least of which is determining your risk profile can be tricky when somebody does the trading for you. Also it's pain in the a**e getting the money out of them after you put it in.