Etoro while on Benefits

Finley

Anyone using Etoro while on sickness incapacity or disability benefits?

brendon

Do you have a question?

sorcerer

Money held in a Etoro account will be regarded as capital and regarded as such for benefits (because it is not a pension). So I guess as long as you don't go above the max. allowed savings for your benefits you will be ok. I'm not a benefits expert (but £6000 rings a bell).

sorcerer

Also are you aware that EToro is high risk, and you could lose all of your money. Because you back somebody who has done well in the past, it doesn't mean they will make you money in the future (I know from experience of the EToro network).

planteria

yes, be very careful..
but benefits can (last i knew at least) be based upon your contributions to date, rather than anything to do with assets..:think:

mark13

Even the good traders loose money. Use the practice account before adding real money.

Finley

Thanks all for trying to help but i need to speak to someone that is actually using Etoro while on benefits as obviously it's not something you can just guess at.

I wondered how you can declare something that is a constant moving target as by the time you have declared it you may have double the assets or have lost the lot as it's not real money that is attainable until you withdraw it.

A neighbour that is a retired accountant suggested that as it's basically a virtual digital agreement between you and the stockbroker that acts on your behalf on virtual stock and money that you might only need to declare it when it becomes real money that you have actually withdrawn into your bank account.

But he's been retired for like 30 years and is just guessing like everyone else that i have spoken to so far.

Masomnia

I don't know how it really works.

Is it spreadbetting? That's not taxable income, so doesn't need to be declared. But if you have cash in the account you would have to declare that if it takes you over the threshold.

If it's changing a lot, I'd probably just declare whatever it is at the end of each month. That's something you could clarify that with the benefits people.

Archi_Bald

Finley wrote: »

Thanks all for trying to help but i need to speak to someone that is actually using Etoro while on benefits as obviously it's not something you can just guess at.

If you want to be certain, you should be speaking to the DWP.

Finley

Then that would make this forum pretty pointless , should be called moneysavingguessingexpert

If someone on here is already doing it then no one else needs to squeeze the lions paw of DWP with all the awkward questions they ask and we all get to know.

Hence why i aimed my original post at anyone that is doing Etoro on benefits.

bowlhead99

Finley wrote: »

Thanks all for trying to help but i need to speak to someone that is actually using Etoro while on benefits as obviously it's not something you can just guess at.

I wondered how you can declare something that is a constant moving target as by the time you have declared it you may have double the assets or have lost the lot as it's not real money that is attainable until you withdraw it.

A neighbour that is a retired accountant suggested that as it's basically a virtual digital agreement between you and the stockbroker that acts on your behalf on virtual stock and money that you might only need to declare it when it becomes real money that you have actually withdrawn into your bank account.

But he's been retired for like 30 years and is just guessing like everyone else that i have spoken to so far.

Investments are capital. Your assets don't suddenly disappear when you place your trades and then magically appear back some point later. You start off with cash and then once you've placed the trades you have a smaller amount of cash and a larger amount of investment contracts. Later the contracts will pay out cash. The trades have a fair value, a surrender value, whether you choose to cash them in or not.

It would be ridiculous if you had £20k and could simply put 10k into a complex investment so that you had less than £16k 'capital' and then take the £9.5k or £10.5k back out as soon as you had filed your claim. It would be like putting £10k on a 3 year deposit and saying you might not get it back because the bank might go bust so it is not your cash until it's back in your hand.

If you don't want to speak to anyone at DWP you may find the online staff guides https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/decision-makers-guide-staff-guide or https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/advice-for-decision-making-staff-guide quite handy. There are whole chapters on income and on capital

Here is one on capital. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/359959/admh1.pdf Read that and see if you can tell us why a trading or spreadbetting account would not be in scope, if you believe it isn't. ?

As they mention: "Capital is not defined in the regulations but what is meant by capital can be found in general law. The items listed below cover the kinds of things that would normally be regarded as a person’s capital but is not a definitive list ". It then goes on to give a nice big list, which is not exhaustive, and a whole load of examples. There is a separate chapter on capital disregards, but I can tell you that it's not going to say that you can disregard a trading account with a broker, regulated or unregulated, in the same way that you can disregard your home that you own.

Besides, the 'deprivation of capital' rules cover giving away capital or spending it on something you don't need like a second car as a single person. So I'd suggest that taking perfectly good money that would pay the bills, and then deliberately putting it into an account that becomes 'instantly worthless' and then claiming benefits because your don't have enough cash to live on, would be frowned upon. If instead it is *not* instantly worthless, then it has a value and you should declare that recoverable/fair value.

It will likely be quite difficult to find many Etoro users on benefits who are also money savings experts and populating this forum. As you'll probably find most people who need benefits to get by are not gambling it at Etoro where 'it is not real money' and you might have 'lost the lot' as you put it. If you do find some chancers doing it, they have probably not chosen to clarify with DWP whether their account value constitutes 'capital' because they would rather not know so they can pretend ignorance in their defence when they are about to be jailed for fraud. Of course where ignorance is no defence, such as, in matters of law, that won't really help.