Tough decision, to operate or not.

Person_one

Sorry guys, thanks for the good wishes.

ameliarate

Person_one wrote: »

If you had a 9 year old small breed dog with a cruciate ligament injury, would you put them through surgery with all the potential risks and no guaranteed successful outcome, or would you try a conservative approach and hope for the best?

I'm completely torn. I've done loads of reading and it seems there's no consensus at all on which is the best option for small dogs (under 10kg).

Has anyone been in this position?

What does your vet say, I would go with their advice. If you try a conservative approach what will that do to quality of life?

Paradigm

It sounds like a partial tear in the ligament?

It's never easy when you are given a choice like this

From personal experience with one of my mums cats some years ago I would be tempted to look at the surgical option.

This cat had a similar injury & my mum decided on the non-invasive treatment.
Some weeks into recovery the ligament ruptured completely requiring surgery. Not only that but as the knee was then totally de-stabilised damage was caused to the knee cartilage, luckily this healed but could also have needed surgery.

I know it was bloody hard work for a long time for her to try & keep the cat queit & let the damage heal but it did (around 4 months IIRC) & it lived to a good age with no problems.

Yes the surgery could go wrong (so can any) but IMO it's the better option as it will reinforce the ligament & keep the knee stable during healing.

Just my opinion based on one experience... & it's not even a dog so it might not have helped at all!

Whichever way you go I don't envy you one little bit but you have my best wishes

krlyr

As a small breed dog, 9 is not particularly old. To be honest, even my dogs now, I would consider an op like this - they're both 8 years old soon and large breeds (Rottie x and GSD) but perfectly fit physically, they don't seem like old dogs (Kiki's physio wouldn't believe me with her age earlier this year - I'm not sure I would too if we hadn't had her from 9 months old and obviously not a fully grown adult). A few months dealing with the issue (which you'd have to do with the conservative method too - Kiki's physio for her shoulder op took ~2-3 months and she'd had around 6 weeks or so of anti-inflammatories, rest, and gentle reintroduction to exercise before that started) to have many, many years without worrying if it would flare up again etc.

It won't harm to get some more opinions though, I'd perhaps consider speaking to a physiotherapist about alternative options. Kiki's shoulder treatment also had a surgical solution, and I did um and ahh about it, but the physio we saw reassured me that it was a very mild case and that in her opinion the arthroscopy to investigate could cause more problems than the original condition. Kiki did really well with the physio, we could see an improvement every week, so I was confident I'd made the right choice, and the physio was happy for me to start jogging with her again and didn't feel that the condition was likely to flare up again. Touch wood, it hasn't, so for us it turned out to be the right option.

I do know if someone who's dealing with a cruciate ligament issue (think partial tear) without surgery at the mo, I'll try to find the links she'd posted that helped with her decision and see how she's getting on. I know I've heard the dog has had a couple of moments he's run off and suffered lameness, but as far as I know she's still not opting for surgery at the moment.

rising_from_the_ashes

Paradigm wrote: »

From personal experience with one of my mums cats some years ago I would be tempted to look at the surgical option.

This cat had a similar injury & my mum decided on the non-invasive treatment.
Some weeks into recovery the ligament ruptured completely requiring surgery.

And yet one of my cats also had a partial tear and it healed really well with cage rest and has never caused (touch wood) any more trouble

One of my neighbours dogs fully ruptured one of his about a year ago - he was scheduled for surgery (which TBH I personally wouldn't have done as he was 12+ at that point & a Lab) - however, xrays revealed quite bad arthritis in his other hip so it was decided it wasn't in his best interests to do it

He's still going strong, has a bit of an odd gait but manages his walks & to run around absolutely fine


Each case is individual so I honestly think you need to go with what your vet states PersonOne - good luck with your decision

Paradigm

Person_one wrote: »

One day I lean toward surgery, the next I'm convinced it's a bad idea, i could really do with a crystal ball!

I'm mostly just gutted if happened, whatever you do it seems the joint is never the same again.

How did it happen? Was it an accident or is it age related? Ligaments are known to deteriorate.

Sadly, serious joint injuries are known to cause problems later in life in most/all animals... many a footballers career has been ended by a cruciate rupture & we know how much money they can throw at treatment.

I'd like to be able to help but can't, I don't know enough. What I would say is.... as hard as it is making the choice, make it soon. The longer you leave it without a proper treatment plan the more chance of increased knee problems later.

No pressure then

Good luck to you both.

orlao

I'm not sure if it's the same for small dogs but I was told by the RVC that with big dogs, once the cruciate goes on one side it's something like 90% of the time that the cruciate ligament on the other leg will fail with in the year...something to talk about to your vet maybe? You might be prepared to consider one op but two?

Have you thought about hydrotherapy - it was near miraculous for my rottie after his (3) CL repairs and an elbow op. I saw quite a few dogs there that were swimming to build muscle around problem joints rather than having surgical repairs. Sometimes it was because they had other problems that made an op a bad idea and there were a few small dogs that the owners decided not to have a CL repair because they had doubts like yours.



If you do decide to look into this, please take advice from your vet and ask them to refer you (especially if you want to claim on your insurance) and make sure that the pool/therapist is accredited as some aren't and can do a lot of damage.

http://canine-hydrotherapy.org/

The pool I used was a member of CHA above and they had all sorts of procedures in place to protect the dogs. Another pool opened locally and I went to have a look but I wasn't that impressed to be honest - no referral or vaccs required, dogs swam for 45 mins from the start if you wanted :eek: and so on...yes it would have been a lot cheaper to swim the dog once a week/fortnight rather than 3 x 15 minute swims but that is a very long time IME!

Paradigm

Is the hydrotherapy used to prevent muscle wastage in the affected leg or does it actually aid the healing process?

Either way it seems a good idea if the dog is supposed to be on restricted exercise.

Pollycat

I can't offer any advice but I do wish your dog well.

Make the decision that is best for the dog.

Person_one wrote: »

Ugh, I just wish one of the vets would tell me what to do, I'm not qualified to make this decision, they are!

Personally, I think your vet should be offering advice on what they think is the best thing to do (hopefully based on what's best for the dog, not their profits).

orlao

Paradigm wrote: »

Is the hydrotherapy used to prevent muscle wastage in the affected leg or does it actually aid the healing process?

Either way it seems a good idea if the dog is supposed to be on restricted exercise.

AFAIK the idea is to build muscle to support the joint - even if it works well, I doubt that it would actually repair a torn CL. I'm prepared to be corrected on that though. I did see some absolutely miraculous improvements in some dogs, including mine over time. I know it was the hydro that did it as when he took a break from it, he deteriorated rapidly each time.

Person_one wrote: »

orlao, I have looked at a few local hydrotherapy places, luckily as I live in a city centre there are lots of options within easy travelling distance and a few seem reputable/qualified. Its something I'll look into whatever I decide, I think. The dog in question won't be impressed though, he's not a water lover!

You might be surprised by how your dog reacts - mine was a strictly only dip the toenails in stream type until he started swimming and he loved it. The downside of that was he embraced his inner waterpuppy after that and swam in anything no matter how sludgey and stinky :rotfl:...at every opportunity :eek:

calicocat

My friend had this with her Bichon, had the surgery, being caged, no exercise etc. Was fine....then months later did the other leg. Had same op on that one, and is now fine again as far as I know.


9 months isn't old for a small dog.

I think a poster on these boards has done this OP with his Bichon too.......ChrisTJ might be the name?.

Whoever it is may be along with good advice later.