ESA and Working Zero Hours-Problem

SJI85

Hi all,

Sorry for the length of the post. I have tried to make it as clear as possible. Any help will be appreciated.

I claim ESA (claim made in April 2014, after closing JSA claim). I am still in the assessment phase.

I also have a zero hours contract, working as an educational support worker and mentor. So far the only work I have done was in November and December last year when still on JSA.

I was expecting to get, at most, five hours mentoring a week this academic year, paid at £15 an hour. I hoped this would be classed as permitted work, though I haven't sought the DWP's permission yet.

However, the support co-ordinator contacted me last thing Friday offering some hours which will start Monday. The case is temporary and will last just 2 weeks. 24 hours of support has been funded for these two weeks. The bulk of support (and work) will be next week, the first of these two weeks.

Feeling pressurised into taking the work, and misunderstanding the permitted work rules, I have agreed to deliver the support.

However, I am concerned about the effect this will have on my ESA, as obviously I am not allowed to work and don't know if this work counts as permitted work. I also don't know if it's possible to get DWP permission after already starting the work.

I will be earning over £100 next week, and working over 16 hours. In subsequent weeks I will be earning less than 100 (probably) and certainly working under 16 hours.

Do I therefore

1. Do the work, inform the DWP and get their permssion, aware that they may not agree to the work and cancel my claim?

Or

2. Cancel my claim anyway tomorrow, as I am working, and then do a rapid reclaim once the two weeks are over. For subsequent weeks I will likely just be doing a few hours mentoring each week, so this should be fine under permitted work. My concern about doing this is does my assessment phase start again from fresh (I assume not if it is a rapid reclaim).

Also, assume this work is accepted as permitted work under the higher limit, does it matter if one week I earn over the £100 limit if in subsequent weeks I earn less? I believe hours worked are taking as an average, so it shouldn't matter if I work slightly over 16 hours one week but under 16 hours for the next 51 weeks?

Thanks for reading.

Indie_Kid

If you earn over £100 per week, your claim would stop. Is the £100 after tax and NI?

SJI85

Indie_Kid wrote: »

If you earn over £100 per week, your claim would stop. Is the £100 after tax and NI?

It will be, as I won't be paying any tax this tax year (the only income I have is IR ESA and my earnings from my job (which have been 0 this tax year so far, and likely won't be over 2k the rest of the year).

So it's best I close my claim on Monday, then reopen it in two week's time depending on how the work has gone and whether I feel I'm unfit for work?

If I do close the claim is a rapid reclaim possible? Will I needto start the assessment phase from week 1 again, or will the additional money still be backdated to the 12th week of my original claim (should I be deemed to have limited capability for work).

Still waiting for my medical assessment, months after the 12 week assessment phase ended.

SJI85

I have heard there is a 12 week and 104 week linking rule, where it is possible to go back on ESA on the same terms (and rate) as before. So if placed in the support group originally one is placed back in the sg and does not need to reserve the 12 week assessment phase.

The problem is I haven't had my medical assessment yet, so no decision made on my capability for work or money backdated to the 12th week of the claim. Should this matter?

rogerblack

SJI85 wrote: »

The problem is I haven't had my medical assessment yet, so no decision made on my capability for work or money backdated to the 12th week of the claim. Should this matter?

There are provisions for averaging earnings under permitted work in some cases, but I don't think this applies to employed earners.

If you (as you must) sign off ESA and do not sign back on again - then you absolutely will not be paid the money backdated to the 12th week.

There are no 102 week linking rules, those went some years ago.
The 12 week rules remain.
I do not off the top of my head know how the linking in this case works.
You are being treated as having limited capacity for work due to being in the assessment phase.
If you actually had LCW due to being found to be entitled to ESA, then there isn't a question that the claims would link if it's only been a couple of weeks.

I however don't know how it works if you reclaim and your old claim was still in the assessment period.

It could be that in principle your assessment should be carried out much sooner than the 13th week of this claim.
But - the current delays are making everything less clear.

I would be extremely surprised if when you sign back on with a break in the claim - if you're later found to have LCW, you get any payment for the time before.

SJI85

rogerblack wrote: »

There are provisions for averaging earnings under permitted work in some cases, but I don't think this applies to employed earners.

If you (as you must) sign off ESA and do not sign back on again - then you absolutely will not be paid the money backdated to the 12th week.

There are no 102 week linking rules, those went some years ago.
The 12 week rules remain.
I do not off the top of my head know how the linking in this case works.
You are being treated as having limited capacity for work due to being in the assessment phase.
If you actually had LCW due to being found to be entitled to ESA, then there isn't a question that the claims would link if it's only been a couple of weeks.

I however don't know how it works if you reclaim and your old claim was still in the assessment period.

It could be that in principle your assessment should be carried out much sooner than the 13th week of this claim.
But - the current delays are making everything less clear.

I would be extremely surprised if when you sign back on with a break in the claim - if you're later found to have LCW, you get any payment for the time before.

That is what I thought.

So in effect I am penalised because of the mess the system is in, with the delays in being assessed?

It seems I there have two options

1. Close the claim and accept that I will miss out on backdated money. Claim JSA instead and see how I go. re-claim ESA should I deteriorate.

2. Contact my line manager and explain that I can only work Monday and Tuesday. Someone else will need to cover the remaining support. This is not ideal and likely won't endear me to my employer, but I was initially told I'd be a lifesaver if I could just do Monday anyway.

Really I'm unsure whether I am fit for work, certainly over 20 hours. There is also the separate issue of not being well enough to be subjected to the Jobcentre's bullying again. It seems option 2 is the best option.

Horseunderwater

You need to complete form PW1 to get DWP permission.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/pommanual/paye77250.htm Acco rding to this you can do a reclaim while in assessment phase & do just the balance of the 1st 13 weeks due without loss, so no need to close it altogether.

SJI85

Horseunderwater wrote: »

You need to complete form PW1 to get DWP permission.

Yeah, I know. Unfortunately I am not naturally organised (dyspraxia) so never got round to obtaining the form in time for the new academic year, especially with other things going on (flat hunting, moving into new flat and so on)

Is the form available to download online or must I request it?

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/pommanual/paye77250.htm Acco rding to this you can do a reclaim while in assessment phase & do just the balance of the 1st 13 weeks due without loss, so no need to close it altogether.

Ok, so if I do a reclaim, and found to have limited capability, the money will be backdated to July (the end of the original 13 weeks)?

Horseunderwater

Yes it should be backdated under linking rules. I can't find a copy on line, but it's not a long form. Took me 15 mins to fill out. The phone lines are open to 6pm in the evening, so you should be able to get through after work.

SJI85

Horseunderwater wrote: »

Yes it should be backdated under linking rules. I can't find a copy on line, but it's not a long form. Took me 15 mins to fill out. The phone lines are open to 6pm in the evening, so you should be able to get through after work.

Yeah, I should be back from work by earlyish afternoon anyway. I think I remember seeing one online a while ago, a scanned copy. But I know the DWP don't like making their forms available online.

I'm still considering closing the claim and going back to JSA. My most recent fit note expires this week, the week i'm working these hours, and I do feel I can work 20 hours a week, just not 35. It's just the thought of dealing with the JC on a regular basis, and the WP provider, makes me anxious and may destabilise things again.

epitome

If you are going to earn more than £101 a week you MUST close your ESA claim from the day you start the work

If you are going to work more than 16 hours a week you MUST close your ESA claim from the day you start the work

If you are going to work under 16 hours and earn less than £101 you MUST inform DWP that you have started the work and ask them to send you a PW1 form (AFAIK, PW1 not available from anywhere except the ESA telephone line).

If you close your ESA claim for the above reasons you also will not be eligible for JSA whilst doing the work.

If you then stop the work or your hours are reduced to less than 16 hours a week AND your earnings are less than £101.00 a week ....you can reclaim ESA, declaring the work in your ESA application. Your claim will link within 12 weeks but AFAIK the only linking rule will be in relation to your ESA Conts entitlement, i.e. if you are entitled now to ESA conts you will be still entitled to ESA Conts because of the link....

Despite the link shown above from an HMRC website (not a DWP website) I have never known a new claim of ESA that has linked under the 12 week rule to mean that the 13 week assessment phase can be re-joined i.e. if you have served 6 weeks you only have 7 weeks to go on the new claim, or if you have served 13 weeks you will have 0 weeks to go on the new claim.

I have also never seen a payment of arrears of WRAG or SG jump across -a period where there was no claim open- to the previous claim period and pay for that older claim aswell.


IMHO, the linking af the assement period could be plausible, but I have never witnessed it in action. However I doubt if the arrears or WRAG or SG would also jump across the gap even if there is such a thing as linking the assessment periods.

You would be better off reclaiming ESA than JSA because ESA allows you to keep your earnings of permitted work, JSA would only allow you to keep £20 of your earning.

If you claim JSA you will be required to look for 40 hours of work a week, unless you get an exception from your JSA advisor.
If you carry on with ESA you will obviously need to renew your sicknote.


It's a very interesting qestion you have brought up and the HMRC quote makes it all the more curious..... I will have to try and find out the answer to this.