Boundary question

thefair1973

Hi all,

I'm not even sure this is the right thread to post this in, but here goes.

We bought a property abut 4 years ago and this week, the people living next door but one to us stated that the previous owner 'gave' part of our back garden to our next door neighbor. Now, they don't use this part of the garden (it was massively overgrown with brambles until the guy next door to them cleared it all this week to re-do his fence) and it's quite a small area of land, but it's behind our current sheds and we want to use it to build a store for logs and bikes. I've checked the deeds for our property and the boundary does show the current fence line s different to that indicated on the plan.

What I need to know is if I go and ask next door if we can have this patch of land back and move our fence, do I have the right to move it anyway even if they object? Surely if the Land Registry plan for our property indicates the boundary line differently, in the absence of any formal written agreement, this land legally belongs to us?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

fed_up_and_stressed

So now he's cleared it i.e this week you've raised the issue and not in the 4 years you've been there.?!?

Can't see the neighbour being happy with that especially if he has already redone his fence on the "incorrect border" compared to the plans.

Why haven't you raised this before?

thefair1973

it wasn't our neighbours who cleared it - it was the neighbour the other side of them who did it to replace his fence. Our neighbours wouldn't even let him out all the brambles in their wheelie bin!

Also, as I said, it's not a massive plot (about 10' x 3') but big enough for us to put in a log store.

Land_Registry

All a question of establish the relevant details from all concerned and then assessing a way forward.

The title plan will offer some assistance re where the general boundary runs but other factors will also come into play, especially your neighbour's expectations/understanding I suspect.

If the previous owner 'gave' them the land but never formalised it then this may impact on any claim as to ownership they may have acquired. The difficulty you have though is that it is a third party who has told you this and not the previous owner or the neighbour who has had the land for this time.

The law around claiming ownership of someone else's land is very complex so I would recommend gathering as much detail as you can and then seeking legal advice. Clearly there needs to be some contact with the neighbour at some stage but what relationship already exists will probably influence how you approach it as they may have a completely different understanding to your own or the third party.

All I would recommend is that avoiding any dispute over this is the best advice anyone can give you as that can be costly/stressful and may also impact on any future attempts to sell.

Our online guidance explains the boundary aspects a little from a registration angle but also steers you as to what other information can come into play in establishing where a boundary lies.

thefair1973

thanks. So if my title deeds indicate a boundary different to that which currently exists, do I not have the right to reclaim it? Your website does provide some guidance but also includes a £90 fee on top of whatever legal/surveyor fees I'd need to incur in order to formally register a boundary which according to my deeds already belongs to me. In the absence of any formal written agreement between the previous owner of my property and the owner of next door, I can't see what claim they have to the land and if I moved my fence, surely they have no comeback as their deeds and mine will still show the correct boundary line?

Land_Registry

What rights you have would be a matter of law so understanding those and what is required to support such claims from a legal perspective is vital and hence the need to seek legal advice.

The website guidance re the £90 fee relates to where neighbours agree to the boundary's position and seek to 'fix it' by completing forms to Determine the Boundary (form DB). This is quite separate from any attempt to claim land.

Any claim by your neighbour would probably depend on the circumstances which led to their 'occupation'. Again this comes down to proving a valid claim exists. This is explained in the guidance I linked you to.

For example if the fence was moved to encompass part of the land in your registered title and the previous owner did not object/challenge that change and it was then left as such for 12 years or more then they may have a valid claim.

Where such claims can become clouded is of course in the detail so if the previous owner told them they could do it then that might defeat the claim as they did it with the owner's consent rather than by simply taking possession of their land.

The devil, as with so many things relevant to land law, is always in the detail and the complexities of such matters should be unravelled through legal advice.

Your starting point is probably to establish how long they have occupied the land for and how they arrived at doing so. Whilst another neighbour's recollection may help to establish both details it is likely to be a combination of your own knowledge, the previous owner's and the 'occupying' neighbour's that will really matter here.

I am sure others will have wider experience of the nitty gritty and reality around what may or may not happen if you simply moved the fence back but all I can do is steer you in the direction of understanding how the law is important in understanding what may or may not happen as a result.

moneyistooshorttomention

Query here:

What normally constitutes "giving permission" to use part of a persons property?

Obviously, renting them it at a peppercorn rent would be "giving permission".

What other things would be considered as "giving permission"? (ie as its so easy for neighbour on "receiving end" of attempted land theft to verbally give permission to a neighbour to use part of their land and then the neighbour conveniently "forgets" that there was a conversation in which they were "given permission" and state instead that they were "given the land" or have acquired it by squatting, when the truth of the matter is that they are only on the land because they were "given permission" by an unwary owner of the place).

JimmyTheWig

fed_up_and_stressed wrote: »

So now he's cleared it i.e this week you've raised the issue and not in the 4 years you've been there.?!?

Can't see the neighbour being happy with that

I think the OP didn't know it was once land that went with his house until the third party cleared the land. Presumably at that point it came up in conversation.

mttylad

And untl that point - if no one was using the land then no one else can claim adverse possession etc to it is entirely within the realms of the OP to tell his neighbour to remove his fence from his (the ops) land ASAP.

Point out their mistake nicely - they may not be completely aware that it is not their land.

JustinR1979

Current owner didn't give permission. Previous owner (allegedly) just said help yourself.
If current owners deeds say where it should be, why should he lose out for a verbal agreement that could be made up for all the evidence there is?

Land_Registry

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

Query here:

What normally constitutes "giving permission" to use part of a persons property?

Obviously, renting them it at a peppercorn rent would be "giving permission".

What other things would be considered as "giving permission"? (ie as its so easy for neighbour on "receiving end" of attempted land theft to verbally give permission to a neighbour to use part of their land and then the neighbour conveniently "forgets" that there was a conversation in which they were "given permission" and state instead that they were "given the land" or have acquired it by squatting, when the truth of the matter is that they are only on the land because they were "given permission" by an unwary owner of the place).

Something we would need to ask a legal advisor to clarify whether verbal permission constitutes consent.

The difficulty any claimant/owner will have in any such situation is the burden of proof either to make the claim or to refute it. Obviously any claim starts with the claimant and they will rely on the facts as they see them.

The owner is then in a position to consent to the claim or object to it and it all then comes down to an interpretation of land law and of course the wording of any claim.

If the matter cannot be resolved then any final outcome is likely to be through the courts and not the land registration process itself as we are relying on the parties involved to confirm the details for example.