UKPC - Multiple tickets at residency car park

m3cca

Hi guys,

New to the forums and have been searching the threads for advice in our particular situation with UKPC.

Parking permit fell off dash, which in the past they have let us off. But recent ticket they have rejected the online appeal done on their website and offered a smaller £15 fee instead of £100. But days after receiving there rejection letter, the wife ended up with two more tickets issues for the day after, one in the morning and the other in the afternoon ... !!!!!!!

Anyway I thought of taking it to the POPLA guys and hashed something together, but looking for some feedback etc.

Thanks in advance.

--

Removing poor exmaple!

Coupon-mad

My wife, XXX XXX, is the registered keeper of the identified vehicle XXX XXX. I am her husband XXX XXX and together we are disputing the Parking Charge Notices rom UKPC - UK Parking Control Limited.

Two of you can't appeal together. The POPLA code has been issued to someone - who?

Not just on the initial parking charge (XXX), but the two subsequent charges (XXX and XXX) which soon followed.

You can't mention lots of PCNs in one POPLA appeal - you need a code for each. You should wait for the Notice in the post each time then appeal one by one as KEEPER not driver, and get some more POPLA codes.

Generally, as far as the one with the rejection letter is concerned, that is ready for POPLA stage but your POPLA appeal is a bit rambling and I found it hard to see the wood for the trees. Trouble is the POPLA Assessor may struggle too. Why not just use one of the templates in the Newbies thread post #3 'How to win at POPLA' - one that I have stated is suitable for a windscreen ticket case? Your point about no contract needs to criticise the signage as well, so far it doesn't, from what I could see.

And what did your first appeal say? Did you actually give away who was driving in it? If not then as keeper you have more appeal points to add but you have really rushed this unnecessarily. Should have waited for the first letter in the post as advised on here for over a year.

The new ones your wife got, have you NOT appealed those yet? Hope not. Wait for the flippin' Notice to Keeper letters this time and get it right. UKPC are currently trying at least one small claim in the hope of catching out a resident at another block's car park, someone who has multiple tickets like you. Luckily that poster is being helped to defend their case but they should have appealed and got theirs crushed by POPLA, one by one. That's what you need to do so put the new ones in a file or on the mantelpiece and wait for the letters to match them. As per the Newbies thread at the top of this forum.

m3cca

Thanks for the feedback Coupon-Mad, I will investigate the newbie thread for more details.

So far POPLA code has been issued to me in my name. At the time, the wife didn't want to go through the UKPC appeal website like she has in the past and asked me to do it. Instead of getting the usual ticket was issued in error letter, we got the denial letter with POPLA code and reduced £15 fee.

Unfortunately regarding signage, it appears that UKPC has popped them up here and there, so I thought I better not mention it. Unless you think its still a valid point to raise.

In the original appeals process on the UKPC website, which they don't give a copy of once you submitted on the website. So I can't fully remember verbatim as it was a month ago. I just mentioned like in the past the ticket was given in error. We do have a valid permit, but it just was not readily visible as it fell into the wheel well etc. State we lived at the residency and here is a copy of our permit. Similar to what the wife posted in the past. At the time of the ticket, she was the person that parked the car last.

The two new ones that the wife received in the mail are Notice to Keeper letters and she has now appealed those via their website again, yesterday (12/09) I believe. She sighted the original ticket that I original appealed as well in her lodgement.

To make it clear:
* Original ticket I appealed was a windscreen job. Didn't know to wait for anything. Since last time we received these we processed it via their website and all was dropped etc.
* Two additional tickets, nothing on windscreen as they must have still seen the original one I appealed, but wife received two Notice to Keeper letters in the mail, which she did appeal via their website.

To be honest I only started to research this today and investigate how to appeal etc to POPLA since I received the rejection letter yesterday and the wife got her 2x NTK. I figured if I paid the £15 mine would go away, but it will just admit liability for her other two tickets. I was hoping they would have just dropped the whole thing like the other times, guess not.

Anyway any feedback would be appreciated. I am going to grab some dinner and read the other threads that you have recommend as well. Thanks

Dee140157

I think what you need to understand is that you have to treat all appeals separately.

The newbie thread will talk you through the process for each ticket.

You need at this stage to get one POPLA appeal written for the code you have before it expires.

Always include a paragraph about signage as we rarely see fully compliant sings. There is always something wrong with them, too high, too many words, badly phrased etc.

Draft a POPLA appeal and put here if necessary.

However once you have done the appeal, when/if you get rejection, then you can use same appeal and copy and paste for PCN no2 and no3.

Now I would like to confirm something. Neither of the PCNs were related to the only windscreen PCN you had were they? They did have different PCN numbers?

Coupon-mad

Unfortunately regarding signage, it appears that UKPC has popped them up here and there, so I thought I better not mention it. Unless you think its still a valid point to raise.

You MUST have 'unclear signage' in your POPLA appeal, like everyone always includes. Do you really think PPCs don't have signs up in all the other cases on here? Of course they have signs up, so what? If they didn't then they wouldn't be able to issue any tickets. But that doesn't mean the signs are clear and compliant and capable of forming a contract, nor does it mean that UKPC might not send POPLA a signage map for the wrong car park or something. If you don't mention signs you let a PPC off the hoops they have to jump through.

And as you think you may have said 'we' have a permit then it seems you may not have admitted who was driving /parked the car, so you can use & adapt one of our POPLA appeals written from the registered keeper, not saying anything like 'I parked'.

And you can use an extra appeal point, that in this instance UKPC has not served a Notice to Keeper at all, so there is no keeper liability applicable for this PCN. The fact that a keeper or household appeals when a windscreen ticket is found on a car does not mean that an Operator does not have to issue a NTK, notwithstanding the appeal they received. It would be different if an admission was made about who parked the car but as keeper, you are not liable with no NTK served for this PCN, within 56 days after the PCN date.

Time your POPLA appeal to be sent online to POPLA near the expiry date of the code (check it in the POPLA code checker in post #3 of the Newbies thread).

And nothing by way of any admission, nothing like 'We do not dispute this'! Noooooo!

And all this (below) is irrelevant - POPLA don't even want to see the permit you know!

Since, the initial Parking Charge Notice (XXX), we have received several more in the mail as letters. Listed below is a summary of the additional parking charge in question, both letters issued on 08/09/2014:
* Thursday 07/08/2014 @ 08:24, Ref No: XXX, Reg No: XXX, appealed via email on 12/09/2014, to UKPC appeals website.
* Thursday 07/08/2014 @ 16:22, Ref No: XXX, Reg No: XXX, appealed via email on 12/09/2014, to UKPC appeals website.

Also, below is another summary of historic parking charges made in error, which have been dropped:
* 24/06/2013 @ 09:59, Ref No: XXX, Reg No: XXX, charges dropped as tickets issued in error.
* 03/08/2013 @ 17:56, Ref No: XXX, Reg No: XXX, charges dropped as tickets issued in error.

We are both resident and letting the property at XXX. Please find a photo of our resident parking permit enclosed.

Hope you have read enough to see that we have 100% POPLA record since early 2013 (over 18 months) and that as long as you follow our wording you will win all these appeals. And hope you have gathered not to appeal like you did before, next time you get one, but to wait for those letters like the ones your wife got? There is a template first appeal in the top thread you could have used and UKPC often just cancel PCNs when they see it. Nothing about permits needs to appear in the first appeal nor the POPLA appeal.

In fact I now challenge you to draft another POPLA appeal (for the single 6th August PCN under POPLA appeal, not talking about the others) based on our templates and - the word 'permit' is banned! No rush , because I am telling you to diarise to submit the appeal near the POPLA code expiry date.

m3cca

Dee140157 wrote: »

I think what you need to understand is that you have to treat all appeals separately.

The newbie thread will talk you through the process for each ticket.

You need at this stage to get one POPLA appeal written for the code you have before it expires.

Always include a paragraph about signage as we rarely see fully compliant sings. There is always something wrong with them, too high, too many words, badly phrased etc.

Draft a POPLA appeal and put here if necessary.

However once you have done the appeal, when/if you get rejection, then I you can use same appeal and copy and paste for PCN no2 and no3.

Now I would like to confirm something. Neither of the PCNs were related to the only windscreen PCN you had were they? They did have different PCN numbers?

Yes, there are 3 different PCN numbers.

First was the windscreen ticket, which I did the typical appeal on UKPC website, for this PCN we never received a NTK.

The second and third PCN, my wife did receive a letter in the post, on the same day, if not the day after I received the rejection of appeal letter for the first PCN.

From what Coupon-mad has mentioned, the fact they never sent a NTK for the first windscreen PCN I appealed is already a no no for UKPC?

I have already checked the POPLA code from the link you have mentioned, the deadline is Wed 08/10, so I got 25 days to finalise something. I will also work something into it regarding signage!

m3cca

Hi guys, I could not get to sleep without having to post a reply and get something up before I go to work tomorrow.

I have included details about the lack of NTK for the PCN, but I read on the Keeper Liability link they have 56 days to comply and send me one. Is that correct and will that make a difference?

Also I am starting to be concerned and raising doubts about the exact words I used in appealing on their website, which they rejected. I guess nothing convincing enough for them to turn me down.

Anyway here is the 2nd draft using a template as well as working some of my existing stuff in.

Feedback is always appreciated.

Draft Appeal 2

To whom it may concern,
RE: POPLA Ref No: xxx
Parking Charge Notice (PCN): xxx
Vehicle Reg: xxx xxx
Date of issue: 06/08/2104 @ 16:51
Company in question: UKPC - UK Parking Control Limited

I wish to appeal against the PCN notice on the following grounds.

1. Notice to Keeper, or lack thereof:
The Notice to Keeper was never sent for the screen ticket issued on the 06/08/2014, PCN: xxx. POPLA Assessor Matthew Shaw has stated that the validity of a Notice to Keeper is fundamental to establishing liability for a parking charge. Where a Notice to Keeper is to be relied upon to establish liability it must, as with any statutory provision, comply with the Act. As the Notice to Keeper was not compliant with the Act, it was not properly issued as I am NOT the registered keeper and I cannot be held liable. I have yet to receive a Notice to Keeper from UKPC - UK Parking Control Limited, the only formal correspondence I have received in the mail is the denial of appeal dated 10/09/2014.

2. Proprietary interest:
It is my belief that UKPC - UK Parking Control Limited have no proprietary interest in the land to issue charges and pursue them in their own name, including at court level. In the absence of such title, UKPC - UK Parking Control Limited must have specific contractual authority from the landowner to issue and pursue charges in the courts, and to make contracts with drivers. UKPC - UK Parking Control Limited have not provided any such contract, and therefore I am of the opinion that no such document is in existence. I therefore put UKPC - UK Parking Control Limited to provide strict proof to the POPLA with an un-redacted, contemporaneous copy of the contract between them and the landowner which provides them with the authority to issue and pursue charges. In accordance with the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice (CoP) for Parking on Private Land 2014 - Version 4, February 2014 Article 7 - Written authorisation of the landowner - This must include assignment of the right for UKPC - UK Parking Control Limited to make contracts with drivers and for UKPC - UK Parking Control Limited to pursue them at court in their own name. Please note that a ‘Witness Statement' or ‘Site Agreement' will be insufficient to provide all the required information set out in Article 7.1 and 7.2 and we put UKPC - UK Parking Control Limited to provide strict proof that their contract covers every point in this section of the BPA CoP for Parking on Private Land 2014 - Version 4, February 2014. Furthermore, I put UKPC - UK Parking Control Limited to provide strict proof that their contract (if indeed one exists) provides that it may issue Parking Charges to a vehicle authorised to park on the land by the landowner, under their residential lease agreement.

3. Genuine pre-estimate of loss:
BPA CoP for Parking on Private Land 2014 - Version 4, February 2014 (which UKPC - UK Parking Control Limited have signed up to adhere to) Article 19.5 - If the parking charge that the driver is being asked to pay is for a breach of contract or act of trespass, this charge must be based on the genuine pre-estimate of loss that you suffer. In this case, UKPC - UK Parking Control Limited has failed to provide any calculation to show how the £100 figure is arrived at, whether as an actual or pre-estimated loss. It is my position that UKPC - UK Parking Control Limited has suffered no loss whatsoever in this case. The £100 parking charge is arbitrary and disproportionate to any alleged breach of contract or trespass. There has been no loss to the landowner as this is a residential car park. In the absence of such proof I hold the authority from the freeholder to park in that residential parking area. I put UKPC - UK Parking Control Limited to provide strict proof to POPLA with a ‘Genuine Pre-estimate of Loss’ incurred due to the vehicle remaining in the parking area for any given period of time. This is therefore an unenforceable penalty and respectfully request that my appeal is upheld and the charges dismissed for all Parking Charge Notices made against the vehicle (xxx xxx). Furthermore, the £100 charge is clearly punitive and unreasonable.

4. Lack of BPA compliant signage.
The driver entered the residential car park, the entrance to which had absolutely no signs to indicate that any restrictions applied, as required by the BPA CoP for Parking on Private Land 2014 - Version 4, February 2014, Article 18.2 - Entrance signs as well as Article 18.3 - Specific parking-terms signage, as there is not enough appropriate signage throughout all the parking bays in the residential parking area, as well as the main entrances to the residential area.

Sincerely yours.

Coupon-mad

I have included details about the lack of NTK for the PCN, but I read on the Keeper Liability link they have 56 days to comply and send me one. Is that correct and will that make a difference?

That's why I have said about only sending the POPLA appeal at the last minute - the first week in October will do nicely to time them out - do the sums!

We will have a look at your draft as soon as we can and you'll get plenty of help to get this right - but remember why you aren't sending this yet, not in September.

As a first point I would say change this:

There has been no loss to the landowner as this is a residential car park. In the absence of such proof I hold the authority from the freeholder to park in that residential parking area.

to this:

There has been no loss to the landowner as this is a residential car park and parking is free for permit-holders. As leasehold owners, our household has authority from the freeholder to park a car in that residential parking area so the vehicle was not 'unauthorised' nor did this parking event cause any loss to UKPC nor to the freeholder or the managing agent.


(whoops I did put the word permit-holders so broke my own challenge! But at least you've steered well away from talking about what happened to the permit now!).

Dee140157

An initial loss must be shown in order to claim costs in respect of it. As an initial loss must be shown in order for a charge to constitute a genuine pre-estimate of loss, the operator has failed to show that the charge is a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

I would add these words in as well after the words C-M has rewritten.

Also include the Beavis paragraphs in the examples, and refer to no commercial justification.

Also I would include a more detailed signage paragraph borrowed from another template.

At the moment this is quite short.

The important advice is NOT to rush in with the appeal as C-M says and to wait until the 56 days deadline is up for the initial PCN.

Get this right the first time and the other appeals will be simple copy and pastes!

m3cca

Thanks for the feedback guys. I am getting a day off coming up in the next couple of days, so will implement the changes that you have highlighted.

Coupon-mad, I will add the extra details around 'permits', although I did try to stay away from that term and keep it generic as much as possible. Taking the arguement away from the permit and its lack of visibility.

Dee140157, I will also add that little extra as well to CM's addition. I will do a little digging about this Beavis paragraph, as well as no commerical justification. Unless you got the link to the thread handy. Regarding signage, do you have a great example that you recommend that I follow?

Also regarding supplying evidence. I got the wife to take pictures of the parking bay that the car was ticketed in, in front of the residential property, as well as other shots without signage. Do the POPLA like it, in regards to submitting photographic evidence, or does it just require UKPC to provide their own evidence?

I don't want to rush the appeal, I want to ensure I get it right and I want to win! I will leave the submission until the very last opportunity before expiration of the POPLA code.

Thanks again for all your help!

Dee140157

Both paragraphs I mention can be found in the examples linked to in newbie thread. Can never remember which ones though. Beavis/commercial justification definitely in PE ones.