LL keeps arranging viewings without notice - Updated

sartois

Hi all,

Once again I find myself seeking the wisdom of these forums. I started a thread a while ago https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4986833 about my LL letting themselves into my rented home for viewings without notice and this is in one part an update on this, and also a question about next steps.

So first the update: The LL refunded me £151 out of the £1730 deposit and wanted to keep the rest. I disputed this and received £1400 back in my favour and the adjudicator ruled against most of their ludicrous claims on my deposit. I also engaged a no win no fee solicitor to seek a settlement for the late protection of the deposit. I know technically I could have done this part myself but as this is not just about the money I wanted someone official to write the letters and shoulder the cost of going to court if they don't settle. This is still in progress.

The other aspect of this is over payment of bills. I queried this with them at the time and eventually they have sent me the information... not surprisingly they claim I owe them money!

Here is the breakdown that they sent me (really sorry about the long post by the way):

=================
Further to your letter with reference to your enquiry about the bills .I have received all the information from our bookkeeper and I am able to provide you with the breakdown of all the bills. Furthermore I like to inform you as follows:

- You share Gas with the ground floor flat which is billed by British Gas under xxA XXX Lane for ground and basement flat, upstairs flat is registered under XXB XXX Lane.

- You share Electricity with the ground floor flat which is billed by British Gas under xxA xxxxx Lane for ground and basement flat, upstairs flat is registered under XXB XXX Lane.

- You share Water bills with the ground floor flat which is billed by Thames water under XXA XXX Lane for ground and basement flat ,upstairs flat is registered under XXB XXX Lane.

- Your overall total contribution are 60% of the total Gas/Electricity/Water Bills

Reason:

A) Basement/Ground floor flat has been Banded C due to larger size of the flat Total Yearly Council Rates: £1207.94

Ground floor flat has been Banded B due to smaller size of the flat Total Yearly Council Rates: £1060.00

Breakdown of the Bills

A. Gas (Bill Period)

05th Sept 12 - 05th December 12: £228.59

06th Dec - 04th March 2013: £417.42

05th March – 07th June 2013: £294.40

08th June – 13th Sept 2013: £58.90

14th Sept – 13th Dec 2013: £227.15

14th Dec - 14th March 2014: £310.36

15th March 2014 - 11thJune 2014: £158.09

11th June 2014 – 01st July 2014 : £34.61

Total: £ 1729.52

B. Electricity(Bill Period)

08th June 12 – 22nd Sept: £79.36 (Your contribution: £15.00)

23rd Sept12 – 25 Dec 2012: £115.16

26th Dec 12 - 26 Mar 2013: £174.07

23rd Sept 12 – 13th June: £52.11

14th June 13 – 13th Sept 2013: £14.87

14th Sept 13 – 24th Dec 2013: £93.90

25th Dec 2013 – 26th Mar 2014: £92.49

27th March – 24th June: £75.69

24th June – 01st July 2014: Your contribution: £20.00

Total: £ 653.29

C. Water Bill (Bill Period yearly)

September 2012- August 2013 = £286.00

September 2013- July 2014 = £238.33(Ten Months)

Total £524.33

Total Utility Charges (Gas/Elect/Water): £ 2907.14



D. Council Rates Basement Flat(Bill Period yearly)

September 2012- August 2013 = £1207.94

September 2013- July 2014 = £1006.61 (Ten Months)



Total Council Rates (22months): £2214.55

Total Basement Flat (Gas/Elect/Water) contribution 60%: £ 1744.28

(In line with council band rating due to the size of the flat)Total amount: £ 3958.83

Total Amount Paid Basement Flat (175 x 22 Months) (Gas/Elect/Water/Council): £3850.00

Total amount owed to us by you: £108.83



I hope that satisfy your concerns and I will appreciate if you could send the outstanding amount of £108.83 by cheque.
==============

So there are a couple of flaws that I see here:

1. When I look up the council tax bandings it is in Band B not C for both flats.
2. The supply address for the Gas and Electric bills just says the number of the house (not whether it is Flat A or so not sure if they are being truthfull when they suggest the 1st floor flat has its own meter. They are prone to lying so not sure I should take their word for it.
3. As I lived there alone I would be entitled to the 25% discount of council tax. They appear to have been paying the full amount.

So I work out that I have overpaid Council tax by £553, and there are at least question marks over the utility bills. Should I just take them to small claims court? I am not sure if the council will speak to me as the bill was not in my name.

Thanks for reading... and apologies again for the long post.

Pixie5740

What did your tenancy agreement say about the paying of bills?


Unless you live in a HMO then I thought the tenant was responsible for paying the council tax which involves contacting the council when you move in and applying for any discounts that might be applicable.


This splitting of the gas, electricity and water does seem like a strange arrangement though. This might be one for Shelter.

DaftyDuck

I don't think you can claim back Council Tax from the Council, as you weren't the one paying it.

The split of bills should have been as per your contract, and I believe you've already paid them that in full; Council Tax banding is irrelevant in all respects from this POV. My house is considerably larger than the neighbour's, and banded two brackets higher, but my wife & I live alone, and are MSE.. er .. experts. My neighbour is as frugal as an Arab sheikh. He goes out for the day leaving the lights on, has even left the garden sprinkler on all day on a lawn (I never water mine..). I'd guess his utility bills are near twice as much as mine, smaller property or no.

Unless that 60% figure was made clear in your contract, I'd simply ignore them. Even if it was, you state the tax bandings are the same. If that is so, and you are sure, by using their own figures, they owe you a substantial refund....

sartois

Pixie5740 wrote: »

What did your tenancy agreement say about the paying of bills?


Unless you live in a HMO then I thought the tenant was responsible for paying the council tax which involves contacting the council when you move in and applying for any discounts that might be applicable.

This splitting of the gas, electricity and water does seem like a strange arrangement though. This might be one for Shelter.

Hi, the tenancy agreement states the following:

"6.7 Electric/Water/Gas Bills - The tenant agrees to keep Electric/Gas/Water and Council Rates in the name of the Landlord. The tenant will pay £175 per month for the Electric/Water/Gas Bills and Council Rates and should the bills increase the tent(sic) will be asked to pay the extra. First payment to be made on..."

I agree it's a strange arrangement, not one that I had come across before. I actually think they are using bills as another way to make money by charging more than they are. These people claim they have 30 properties that they manage so can imagine it adds up quite quickly. The LL did try and claim on the deposit dispute that I had underpaid bills and I should pay the extra, so it seems only fair and reasonable that if their calculations are wrong and I overpaid then they should pay this back to me.

sartois

DaftyDuck wrote: »

I don't think you can claim back Council Tax from the Council, as you weren't the one paying it.

The split of bills should have been as per your contract, and I believe you've already paid them that in full; Council Tax banding is irrelevant in all respects from this POV. My house is considerably larger than the neighbour's, and banded two brackets higher, but my wife & I live alone, and are MSE.. er .. experts. My neighbour is as frugal as an Arab sheikh. He goes out for the day leaving the lights on, has even left the garden sprinkler on all day on a lawn (I never water mine..). I'd guess his utility bills are near twice as much as mine, smaller property or no.

Unless that 60% figure was made clear in your contract, I'd simply ignore them. Even if it was, you state the tax bandings are the same. If that is so, and you are sure, by using their own figures, they owe you a substantial refund....

I actually think they only have 1 meter for 3 properties, but not sure how I can prove it. I could ask them but they are prone to lying... about just about everything...

I think the 60% is just a made up figure that they used to ensure that the bills they did supply copies of showed that I owed them money.

By the way they got pretty upset when they discovered I was registered on the electoral roll without telling them, so I am sure they are up to something dodgy. I am using the Ealing Council Tax band search to get my information so not sure how accurate this is.

This is not a HMO by the way, I was the sole tenant of the property.

RAS

sartois wrote: »

Further to your letter with reference to your enquiry about the bills .I have received all the information from our bookkeeper and I am able to provide you with the breakdown of all the bills. Furthermore I like to inform you as follows:

- You share Gas with the ground floor flat which is billed by British Gas under xxA XXX Lane for ground and basement flat, upstairs flat is registered under XXB XXX Lane.

- You share Electricity with the ground floor flat which is billed by British Gas under xxA xxxxx Lane for ground and basement flat, upstairs flat is registered under XXB XXX Lane.

- You share Water bills with the ground floor flat which is billed by Thames water under XXA XXX Lane for ground and basement flat ,upstairs flat is registered under XXB XXX Lane.

- Your overall total contribution are 60% of the total Gas/Electricity/Water Bills

Reason:

A) Basement/Ground floor flat has been Banded C due to larger size of the flat Total Yearly Council Rates: £1207.94

Ground floor flat has been Banded B due to smaller size of the flat Total Yearly Council Rates: £1060.00

My first questions is...........


But there were 4 flats If I recall rightly? You had one door and the other three flats had doors behind a shared front door?

And I seem to recall that there were only two CT listings 10 and 10a?

So how come thay are only referring to two flats?

Pixie5740

You can find your council tax band by entering your postcode into this website:


http://www.voa.gov.uk/cti/InitS.asp?lcn=0


EDIT: Why would the LL be upset at you registering on the electoral roll at the address where you live? It sounds suspicious to me.


After your catalogue of issues with this LL I'd be tempted to get on to the local council's housing department and let them investigate the LL to ensure everything is above board.

sartois

RAS wrote: »

My first questions is...........


But there were 4 flats If I recall rightly? You had one door and the other three flats had doors behind a shared front door?

And I seem to recall that there were only two CT listings 10 and 10a?

So how come thay are only referring to two flats?

Hi Ras, that's correct. There are 4 flats registered according to VOA, but they say there are 3. When it comes to the energy bills they claim a meter between 2, and the upstairs flat has it's own meter.

Pixie5740 wrote: »

You can find your council tax band by entering your postcode into this website:


http://www.voa.gov.uk/cti/InitS.asp?lcn=0


EDIT: Why would the LL be upset at you registering on the electoral roll at the address where you live? It sounds suspicious to me.

After your catalogue of issues with this LL I'd be tempted to get on to the local council's housing department and let them investigate the LL to ensure everything is above board.

I have just been in touch with the council. It turns out that the LL has attempted to claim the refund of the sole occupancy themselves and the council told them they would need to contact me to provide the evidence... I have a feeling they were going to attempt to keep that for themselves as they have not contacted me.

The council have said that I can submit evidence of occupancy of that address (via the tenancy agreement) and can get the account transferred into my name. Once this is done then I can submit the claim for the discount and they will refund the money directly to me.

trevormax

sartois wrote: »

The council have said that I can submit evidence of occupancy of that address (via the tenancy agreement) and can get the account transferred into my name. Once this is done then I can submit the claim for the discount and they will refund the money directly to me.

This bit has me a little worried if I am reading it right.

As far as I can tell, you have made payments to the LL and the LL has made payments to the council.

If that statement is correct, you have not made ANY payments to the council.

Again, if that statement is correct and you get the council to set up a CTAX account from the date you moved in, you are now liable for the CTAX from that date minus a 25% discount.

Here is where I get worried. You now have a CTAX account from the date of moving in and you have made zero payments to that account since you moved in. You now need to pay that CTAX. You have no refund heading your way just a big fat bill.

Your LL is now no longer liable for CTAX from the date you moved in. The LL has made payments to that account and will get a rather large refund heading their way.

You need to be very careful with the council and what they say. When they say you can get the account transferred to your name, they do NOT mean any monies that have been paid to the account by your LL. They mean the liability.

If I have read your situation correct and all this does happen, you would then need to claim money back from the LL. I think this could be a complicated matter possibly requiring a small claims court in the end.

As the LL is the one who has made the payments to the account, the LL is the only one who can get that 25% back from the council. The council will not give you money that the LL has paid to them. If you get the liability transferred to your name from the date you moved in, the LL will actually get the full £2214.55 back and you will get a bill for £1660.91 (£2214.55 minus 25%)

sartois

trevormax wrote: »

This bit has me a little worried if I am reading it right.

As the LL is the one who has made the payments to the account, the LL is the only one who can get that 25% back from the council. The council will not give you money that the LL has paid to them. If you get the liability transferred to your name from the date you moved in, the LL will actually get the full £2214.55 back and you will get a bill for £1660.91 (£2214.55 minus 25%)

I see your point and as I am typing out the letter to the council I am feeling a little hesitant about this. They did say that as long as I can prove payment to the LL (by way of bank statements etc) then it would be enough and I would get the refund but this does worry me now.

I think I may need to adjust my letter to a query so I can get something in writing from them confirming what they said on the phone and to ensure what you suggest doesn't happen.

The LL has already attempted to get this money refunded to themselves (which feels a little like attempted theft to me) so don't want the council to give it directly to them as I highly doubt I will see it again.