Old power stations closing = Higher prices?

SerialRenter

Smiley_Dan wrote: »

Can you give me a reason why solar energy cannot be used for heating? Unless you've discovered some new law of physics, I doubt it.

Because when you typically want heating the sun's not out, which happens to be when solar's not making much energy.

Smiley_Dan wrote: »

Can you give me a reason why the energy has to be *producing* at the time the snow is falling? Because unless suddenly there's no such thing as heat storage, I doubt it.

Good luck storing heat over a whole season, the sunny days during winter wouldn't be enough to replenish stores for the next few weeks of grey skies and sub zero temperatures.
But thats beside the point, it's not heat that needs to be stored, it electricity, and currently there is no visible scalable method of doing this. Grid storage is unfortunately a thing of the future, not a thing of today.

Smiley_Dan wrote: »

Can you give me a reason why 60% of household bills are for heating? Crap building methods, and terrible existing building stock, that's why. Yes, heating stuff is the most energy intensive aspect of home ownership. Doesn't mean you have to do a lot of it though.

I agree it would be fantastic if this changed, and no doubt it will, only it'll be a long slow process.

Smiley_Dan wrote: »

It'll take foresight, confidence and traditional British engineering knack. But it's a future that's possible. The alternative? Mediocrity, in the thrall of big business and dependencies on nutters in foreign climes.

Certainly hope so :beer:

lstar337

Smiley_Dan wrote: »

Build more solar and turbines and get on with it.

Can't wait until I have to weave in an out of these turbines while out on a country walk, and yet I still can't turn on the lights at home because there's no wind.

Smiley_Dan

SerialRenter wrote: »

Because when you typically want heating the sun's not out, which happens to be when solar's not making much energy.

See the next bit.

Good luck storing heat over a whole season, the sunny days during winter wouldn't be enough to replenish stores for the next few weeks of grey skies and sub zero temperatures.
But thats beside the point, it's not heat that needs to be stored, it electricity, and currently there is no visible scalable method of doing this. Grid storage is unfortunately a thing of the future, not a thing of today.

First, we're talking about heat, not sure what electricity has to do with it other than a way of generating it.

Heat storage is perfectly possible. You can do it explicitly in interseasonal stores or kinda-implicitly by charging the earth with heat. This is already done and dusted. It's how the earth works! What is required is for regulations to enforce this. Unfortunately, regulations are being loosened, if anything.

Probably most challengingly it would require widescale retrofit of energy saving measures, which Government does not appear keen on. I'm not sure why, it's the kind of infrastructural improvement that would glean huge benefits long term.

As for electrical storage, however: I agree. But just whistling and putting money into the same old dead ends will not work.

I agree it would be fantastic if this changed, and no doubt it will, only it'll be a long slow process.

Of course. The problem is that politicians like trotting out easy answers because it ensures votes. So we end up with short term decisions which leads to economic and strategic compromise. Still, so long as house prices keep rising eh? :wall:

Smiley_Dan

lstar337 wrote: »

Can't wait until I have to weave in an out of these turbines while out on a country walk, and yet I still can't turn on the lights at home because there's no wind.

Are you actually serious?

SerialRenter

Smiley_Dan wrote: »

First, we're talking about heat, not sure what electricity has to do with it other than a way of generating it.

Heat storage is perfectly possible. You can do it explicitly in interseasonal stores or kinda-implicitly by charging the earth with heat. This is already done and dusted. It's how the earth works! What is required is for regulations to enforce this. Unfortunately, regulations are being loosened, if anything.

I agree it is, on a local level, but not a grid level,unless you have geothermal energy available like southampton. But I wouldn't say it's practical in any way to install ground heat storage in every new build, as its limited by local geographical features and the cost implications. The solution would really have to be on a grid level i believe.

Also, i mention electricity, because thats how you get the heat in the first place, immersion heaters and the like. Although i suppose you meant solar heating circulating air/fluid via a ground heat pump?

Smiley_Dan

District heating etc. As you just said it's already done in one place. I agree about local conditions.

WRT solar charging I am talking about schemes where solar thermal collectors use heat exchangers to charge heat into the ground. I'm not sure what you mean by "that's how you get heat in the first place"... we aren't just talking about PV... although that's part of the solution.

Of course electricity can also be used as a "leverage" with heat pump solutions which then take the heat back out of the ground that has been stored.

And as I said, this all also implies a lot of investment. Still, they seem to have money for a lot of other things, you would've thought energy security would be near the top of the list.

I'm not saying it will be easy. Nor cheap. It will take guts and backbone, determination and drive. Some countries will achieve it, just like Britain was amongst the vanguard of the industrial revolution and have played our part in the information revolution. I hope we're one of the first for the clean energy revolution.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Smiley_Dan wrote: »

Build more solar and turbines and get on with it.

The real[ish] costs of green / nuclear / coal / gas ..... are here:



- we can waste 40+ bi££ion on Boris's HS2 bedroom line
- but can't find the corn money for non-carbon generation
- after the 2 [yes there are two] are built, we should
- bank the HS2 £40billion and bank 20% of the shale profits
- then build our UK owned nuclear non-carbon generation

All governments are doing nothing, £20 in every £100 is for the green levy 17% of that is for the fuel poor [good] 83% is for stupid little windy mills and other ineffective generation [bad]. At some point we need to do something and stop the hair shirt sandal wearing tree huggers sucking up what little money we have left. We as a nation are already paying two and a half times more [thee times more with offshore] than we need to turn the heating on.

Get real ........................ with energy supply, we are not Germany, we are a bankrupt nation who can't even find the dosh to build hospitals to treat our ill - we have to start somewhere and security of supply & new carbon free generation is a very good starting point. Little windy-mills, wiggly worms in the waves and silly bits of silicone pointing at the sun are not going to avert an impending real time day to day ability to switch on our electric heating.

- the predicted price of twice current wholesale is at the 2023 price
- the French & Chinese will make about 10% out of our power needs when the new Hinkley site goes on-line
- low or no carbon cost-neutral generation is many generations away

What we as a GOV & nation could but will not do is look to (1) reducing need [insulation] (2) local off grid town or city sized energy hubs and (3) breaking the monopoly by using legislation to insert a single buyer / seller between the generator & retail arms of the big 6.

#19th March last year - Nobody likes the truth, and I mean nobody. As long as this country avoids the inevitable and fails to build nuclear we will forever be at the mercy of primary resources of which we have none. Building toy windmills, pointing little bits of silicon at the sun and putting wiggly worms in the waves won't hack it .. .. if we covered the entire island and its shoreline in them it still would not provide power for the nation. Put the whole worthless 'green' scenario in the long grass till about 2050 then have a~n~other look at the efficacy of UK 'green' energy, it might have improved .. .. but I doubt it. Do I want a nuke power station next to me, aye go on - I've got one 16 miles from here [1969- 1984] but I suppose another won't hurt, I mean its been there for nearly 30 years and done me no harm.

silverwhistle

The problem with some of the energy saving amounts being bandied about is that they seem to be almost as big as my annual bills for a 3-bedroom house.

That may be because I've got solar panels and have nothing to pay for gas for 6+ months of the year (I cook with electric), and even during the winter months I get a reasonable contribution to my water heating on cold, sunny days. At one stage last winter I was even thinking of getting a small oil-filled rad to mop up some of the daytime excess power.

As a result of my capital investment I make much lower demands on the grid and have also changed my behaviour to make less demand at peak times, which will help the system cope. My action also helps improve the balance of payments by reducing fuel imports.

I'm not sure why there's such hostility to green energy, but I don't worry about, nor do I worry about my fuel bills.

silverwhistle

.. and whilst I was writing that what should come along but one of those hostile posts:

hair shirt sandal wearing tree huggers... silly bits of silicone

. Cut and paste invective, not original and not an argument.

If nuclear is so competitive how come the companies aren't falling over themselves to build new ones? Surely rising fuel prices should make building one an attractive option? If we do go ahead we are having to guarantee very attractive returns to the French/Chinese.

How long will it take to build and commission a nuclear power station? Ten to fifteen years seems a reasonable estimate if the cost-escalating Finnish experience is anything to go by. In contrast my solar panels, sorry - "silly bits of silicone" - went up in one day last year and were generating that same day.

Smiley_Dan

The real[ish] costs of green / nuclear / coal / gas ..... are here:

Haha! Right click, open image in new browser. Oh, what's this? http://joanpyeproject.org/

At one stage last winter I was even thinking of getting a small oil-filled rad to mop up some of the daytime excess power.

This is what I do using an Optiplug, so it only comes on when there's enough excess (normally after my free DHW has been produced).

Funny, for a pipe dream these renewable things do produce some heat. Must be my imagination. I need to "get real" apparently. Maybe I should start reading the Daily Telegraph