Unfair treatment by IRCAS and south west trains.. :(

Kirbky

Hello,

Ill get straight to the point.

On 26th of June 2014, I was travelling to college on normal basis - topping up Oyster card, tapping in, getting on the train and tapping out etc. and I always take around £2 each day with me because my parents pick me up when I finish the college.

The problem was that day, that the machine where you top up your Oyster card didn't work - I was screwed, and the only other machine accepted debit/credit cards. I decided to jump on the train, without the ticket, thinking that I may ask the ticket inspector that I could explain that the machine didn't work, and I would willingly pay the £2 that I had in my pocket... or top up the oyster at the station I was getting off, tap in and then back out, so it would take around £1.50 off my oyster... But nooooooo, shortly speaking we had an argument - I couldn't say nothing in my defence, I was threatened with police by him (wow), and I was slapped with a penalty fare of £5. I rejected the penalty fare and told him I won't be paying, because I was treated unfairly and unjust.

Right, this is where it gets interesting.

Later on in July I went on holidays with my mum and brother (our dad stayed at home), and the day after we come back from our holidays, I receive a letter from IRCAS, saying that i should pay blah blah blah or I have 21 days to make an appeal, since that letter was sent away from their HQ. We received the letter I guess maybe around 25 days later, since it was sent from their HQ - couldn't make an appeal.. Weird isn't it. I did make an appeal by writing them a letter, however the letter was rejected, and my fine went up to £70:mad:

Now they say that if this doesn't get paid within 14 days since the letter was sent(it's now 9 days, the letter arrived 5 days later...) they will "take further action to recover the outstanding debt."

Help me please, can I so something, anything at all, do I have any consumer rights or anything....:( I just don't know what to do anymore *sigh*

OlliesDad

Kirbky wrote: »

Hello,

Ill get straight to the point.

On 26th of June 2014, I was travelling to college on normal basis - topping up Oyster card, tapping in, getting on the train and tapping out etc. and I always take around £2 each day with me because my parents pick me up when I finish the college.

The problem was that day, that the machine where you top up your Oyster card didn't work - I was screwed, and the only other machine accepted debit/credit cards. I decided to jump on the train, without the ticket, thinking that I may ask the ticket inspector that I could explain that the machine didn't work, and I would willingly pay the £2 that I had in my pocket... or top up the oyster at the station I was getting off, tap in and then back out, so it would take around £1.50 off my oyster... But nooooooo, shortly speaking we had an argument - I couldn't say nothing in my defence, I was threatened with police by him (wow), and I was slapped with a penalty fare of £5. I rejected the penalty fare and told him I won't be paying, because I was treated unfairly and unjust.

Right, this is where it gets interesting.

Later on in July I went on holidays with my mum and brother (our dad stayed at home), and the day after we come back from our holidays, I receive a letter from IRCAS, saying that i should pay blah blah blah or I have 21 days to make an appeal, since that letter was sent away from their HQ. We received the letter I guess maybe around 25 days later, since it was sent from their HQ - couldn't make an appeal.. Weird isn't it. I did make an appeal by writing them a letter, however the letter was rejected, and my fine went up to £70:mad:

Now they say that if this doesn't get paid within 14 days since the letter was sent(it's now 9 days, the letter arrived 5 days later...) they will "take further action to recover the outstanding debt."

Help me please, can I so something, anything at all, do I have any consumer rights or anything....:( I just don't know what to do anymore *sigh*

Unfortunately I doubt you can do anything other than pay the fine. You used the service without paying for it (I appreciate that it was not your fault).

It sounds like you have made the matter worse for yourself by refusing to pay the initial fine.

Jeff_Bridges_hair

By going away and ignoring it then you really have got yoruself in bother.

I dont think it was a penalty fare you were given but an Unpaid Fares Notice given that it was for £5. This was given to you because the machine would not let you top up your oyster card for your journey and that is fair and correct.

Because you chose to ignore this and not pay it this has now escalated. Consumer rights board will not help you more on this as they may take action to scrap the UPFN and then go down the prosecution route.

To get much more detailed advice I ssuggest you visit this forum http://www.railforums.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=152 and post up your issue there where people well versed in railway ticketing and associated bylaws will be able to assit you further.

bris

You cant win this one, you should pay the £70 before it doubles with court action.

Next time just remember you cant beat the train system, it's protected by law and it's also a criminal offence to dodge the fair so it could have been worse and may yet still be if you continue to ignore them.

pinkshoes

Do you have proof the machine was broken? (e.g. did you take a photo of error message?).

Did you consult any staff to point out the machine was broken and ask their advice?

Did you not have a debit/credit card on you?

agrinnall

What station did you start from? Was it unmanned? If not did you make any attempt to top up your Oyster card at the ticket window?

stevemLS

Afraid you got caught travelling without a ticket and have subsequently ignored matters.

As I understand it, it is the responsibility of the passenger to ensure that they have a valid ticket. At least one alternative means of payment was available which you chose/couldn't use. You haven't said whether it was a staffed station.

powerful_Rogue

You should have found the "Permit to travel" machine and used that to pay the £2 which you could have exchanged for an actual ticket.

What if the self-service machine(s) or permit to travel machine is out of order and there is no ticket office or, if there is it is closed

If the self-service machines are out of order, or the ticket office is closed outside of the advertised hours, we have a system in place to ensure our authorised collectors are made aware of this. Regular checks are made on all our self service machines to ensure that they are in full working order and are monitored to ensure the time they are out of service is kept to a minimum. If you are unable to purchase a valid ticket for travel, you should approach the on-train staff at the earliest opportunity.

daytona0

You could try and contact the CEO or managing director; tshoveller@swtrains.co.uk


See whether they can give you a discount. Just explain what happened

timbo58

I think the wording 'may' in this instance isn't terribly well worded if you wish to convince anyone you had the intent of paying for the journey at all.

What most then do IME (not saying the OP did this but they don't say differently to be fair) is sit down and wait for the ticket collector etc to come to them and challenge them for the ticket or fare.

This is NOT the sensible option -if a passengers knows (as the OP did) they do not have a valid ticket for the journey they are making then they should make every effort to sort this out -yes even if that means you actively seeking out the ticket collector (I know that seems an alien concept to some).

If this had been the case he/she may well have been more lenient, although to be fair it sounds like you were issued with a UPFN (a PF isn't £5 AFAIAA?) for the full single fare and that is normally the MINIMUM they can do -to be told 'its unfair/I'm not paying it' after issuing it is irrelevant to the staff member -it's hardly a barrel of laughs having to write one out either, I'm sure most ticketing staff would rather be carrying out the rest of their duties than wasting time issuing UPFNs.

A UnPaid Fares Notice is what it says -& you have 14 days (might have changed?) to pay it in full or argue why you should not have been issued with it.
If I'm wrong and It's a PF, this would also be appropriate if you were in a PF area and the staff member trained to issue PF's.

If the ticket collector had believed the OP intended to avoid the fare however then he would simply have collected the same identity details and reported the OP, he/she didn't do this, so it's accepted you have merely broken a strict liability bylaw by not having a valid ticket for your journey.

If you can prove there was no ticket issuing facility AND no permit to travel machine then you have a case to have this levy* cancelled, however you've already stated the station had a working ticket machine (even if it would only take card payments), so any appeal (even if they would consider it so late) would automatically be rejected.

It's unfortunate you chose to ignore the £5 levy*
It's very unfortunate you missed the letter from IRCAS.

*I've said levy rather than fine as only a court can issue 'a fine', unless these letters state a magistrates court has heard your case & ruled in your absence then it is currently an 'out of court' settlement sum you are being requested to pay to prevent it going further.
£70 might sound a lot but a lot of paperwork and expense has been caused to the train company by your non payment, and £70 IME is cheap.

I'm not preaching -just giving you the benefit of someone who has processed these sort of things for 15 years in a previous career -all the way from finding someone w/o a ticket to seeing them in court.

Finally it's up to you what you decide to do -ignore it again and it may well be in court and £100 dearer at least IME, although there's an outside chance they haven't done their paperwork correctly and it'll be thrown out.
An expensive gamble however.

Pay it now and it'll go no further, if it was a lot more expensive I'd say ask them for a lower amount pleading poverty, but as I said £70 is pretty reasonable IME.

There is a very well informed forum at the 'consumer action group' if you want to know more of course.