S21 notice date and moving out before expiration

HomeK4Roy

Hi,

A quick question re s21 notices and one I am unable to find an answer to, as a bit unusual.

I have been served a s21, it expire on Thursday 4th September.
I have found a new property, partially moved in and I am clearing out possessions and cleaning old property.

The landlord was flexible with moving out (he wants property back for personal reasons), and I asked to check out on Monday 1st September at 9am. The letting agent/landlord has agreed to return 3 days monies for rent which was paid in advance, covering 2-4th sept this week.

Now for my problem, I haven't managed to clear all my stuff out / clean to required standard and I have requested to the letting agent I would like to change checkout from Monday 1st September at 9am to Wednesday 3rd September.

Ok, I sent an email quite late on Friday night to the letting agents asking this, but I thought somebody would be working on Saturday (also sent copy to branch manager). I didn't get a response so telephoned sat am and spoke with the sales team (who do work in the small rural office on a Saturday am), and was informed letting do not work Saturday. They have 'left a a message for lettings to see on Monday'.

Does anyone know my rights as a tenant?

Can I legally change my check out date to wednesday considering I have paid up to and including Thursday, and s21 runs out on Thursday?

I also need to arrange a checkout first thing due to work commitments, and this agency have not been the easiest to deal with over the past couple of years. After the s21 was served, (as a complete shock) I questioned why etc and discovered the letting agent was not passing info on repairs to landlord etc. I opened a whole can of worms in their 'administration' of the tenancy.

Sorry not quite so short, but in summary can I change check out of can they force me out tomorrow?

Thanks
Roy4

brightbell276

If your s21 notice is correct and if done to correlate with the end of a period of a tenancy (ie the day before rent falls due again) you will not be liable for a further period of rent, if you leave at the end of the notice period; in your case, the 4th.

Incidentally, If your landlord wishes to repossess legally, he will have to go to court to do this, but you are likely to be liable for the costs in this. So, there shouldn't be any threats of eviction, over this few days. At worst, and in the ideal world, of your tenancy runs into the next rent month, you will be liable for another month's rent.

Negotiation with your landlord or letting agent is key here. It's all about common sense, this one and can easily be sorted out.

The law regarding end dates of s21 notices has recently been muddied in the higher courts, so if it ends up in a battle, check your date of end of a period of your tenancy and whether this is the same as the expiration of the notice.

Please consult Shelter for telephone advice if there is confusion.

theartfullodger

brightbell276 wrote: »

If your s21 notice is correct and if done to correlate with the end of a period of a tenancy (ie the day before rent falls due again) you will not be liable for a further period of rent, if you leave at the end of the notice period; in your case, the 4th.
....

Actually no, IMHO:

A S21 does not end a tenancy nor require the tenant to leave: It merely, if valid & on expiry, permits landlord to start court possession proceedings:

Whilst almost all landlords & agents are very very happy for tenants to leave at/before s21 expiry and no more rent is expected, it would be perfectly valid for landlord to sue for unpaid rent - unless some evidence of surrender of tenancy were available ...(either formal, written surrender or by operation of law).

See lawcruncher's comments here..
http://blog.painsmith.co.uk/2010/08/23/after-a-section-21-notice-expires/

brightbell276

theartfullodger wrote: »

Actually no, IMHO:

A S21 does not end a tenancy nor require the tenant to leave: It merely, if valid & on expiry, permits landlord to start court possession proceedings:

I think you rather missed my point, or it wasn't made clear.

The tenant stated that he would leave by the 4th. (Or a little earlier; and it was accepted by the landlord ) It is always prudent to ensure that arrangements to alter the end of the notice can invalidate the notice itself . This is also noted on your linked article, Artfullodger, so excercise caution. If a tenant didn't leave, after the extension of time after a notice, it is always best to serve fresh notice. Another 2 months then. Whilst this doesn't appear to be the case here, one can see where it could all go so badly wrong.

In this case, both parties have agreed to end the tenancy; so whilst the landlord would have to proceed to court to obtain possession, both parties have agreed that the term will end, as written notice to leave has been given and apparently accepted, by the landlord.

In fact, if a tenant doesn't leave when he has given notice, he could be charged double rent, but that's another tale altogether.

People have to use common sense in situations like this; thankfully, this seems to be happening here. Litigation is not always the answer and certainly my cases which are defended, can go on for months, with no chance of the landlord obtaining any of his costs and tenants going off at all tangents. Most disagreeable and often a complete waste of everyone's time.

Please note that the link given in the previous post was made 4 years ago; the higher courts have given their own interpretations of notice, so please read old advice with caution. Always.

jjlandlord

The interpretation of the effect of a s.21 notice has not changed as far as I know.

From what was written we don't kniw if the tenancy is periodic and whether OP has in fact served a valid notice to quit on his landlord.
There is no suggestion either that there is any agreement from the landlord that possession is not required after the 4th.

The only thing we can say is that there appear to be an agreement to surrender the tenancy. As such the tenancy will end only if OP does leave as agreed.

G_M

I suspect brightbell is referring to [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Spencer V Taylor[/FONT] which relates to which version of a S21 Notice can/should be used, and whether the expiry date need relate to tenancy periods or calender months.

That is all irrelevant here, since the surrender date has been mutually agreed (1st Sept).

The validity of the S21 is not being questioned here - we have no idea if it was valid or not since no details are provided irrespective of the 'changes in the law' .

If the tenant now wishes to stay till 3rd it would be sensible to agree this change with the LL. If the LL objects (which seems unlikely)

a) there is some minor risk that the LL could charge double rent

b) there is some minor risk that the tenant would be due to pay ongoing rent since the agreed surrender has been negated so the tenancy continues (until such time as valid otice or mutual agreement is reached).

Note there is no obligation on the tenant (or right) to attend the check -out inspection.


It seems strange the LL is ending the tenancy at all though.

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After the s21 was served, (as a complete shock) I questioned why etc and discovered the letting agent was not passing info on repairs to landlord etc. I opened a whole can of worms in their 'administration' of the tenancy.

The tenant wants to stay. The LL has given no indication (other than the S21) of wanting the tenant to leave. The issue seems to be the contract between landlord and agent.

jjlandlord

No the landlord cannot charge double rent, as explained. Rent liability has also been explained by the fact that an agreement to surrender does not end the tenancy, only carrying out the agreement does: rent will continue to be due until tenancy ends.

HomeK4Roy

Hi,

Thanks to everyone who has responded to my dilemma.

Upon reading the first response, I contacted the landlord directly, who is very reasonable and yesterday afternoon has agreed to allow me to check out later in the week, and he informed the letting agency of this.

In reference to a few of the comments, here's a little background ....

The problem is the agency is a poor one, I know this is more common than not, but I have had to tread on tiptoes with them throughout the duration of the tenancy as they do not pass truthful and factual information onto the landlord. I didn't want for them to have any reason to incorrectly influence the landlord to terminate my tenancy as I have really enjoyed living in the property and area, and had no reason to think the landlord wanted the property returned so soon. (It was a known investment purchase).

When I receive the s21, it was less than a week after an inspection, so seemed somewhat of a coincidence to receive s21.

All inspections have been good, I have maintained the property well, there have been a few repairs needed doing and that is where the problem lies, the LA has sent incompetent (and unsafe) workmen round to do the repairs. The LA also has not been truthful in information passed to landlord, and I know this as I have had the need to speak with landlord directly on a few occasions, regarding him assigning his own workmen for repairs.

All in all, I will just be glad to get away from this incompetent LA.

There's another story re 'prescribed information housing act'.......(in case anyone is interested) which I think is relevant to s21, in which they sent a copy of this document to me, last month, signed by landlord prior to start of tenancy, and not signed by me. This was sent several years after start of tenancy, and I had not seen this copy before. This copy signed by the landlord is completely different to the one I signed (which appears to be a draft copy with 'insert specific clause here' all over it). I have asked LA what this document is, and they have declined to tell me it's relevance. It may or may not be relevant, but it would be nice to know.

Thanks to all for the advice,
Roy4