Hospital Complaint For Breach Of Equality Act 2010

Umkomaas

Sherlock delivereth!

http://nebula.wsimg.com/43296a814f12c9e884f29bdd5e3569ea?AccessKeyId=4CB8F2392A09CF228A46&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

bod1467

Second breach – Section 16.5 of the BPA AOS COP says:
16.5 If your landowner provides a concession that allows parking for disabled people, if a vehicle displays a valid Blue Badge you must not issue it with parking charge notices.

Why are the BPA not upholding their own code of practice? Must not is categorical ... they don't need to be seeking clarity from APCOA with regard to what is actually on the signage; APCOA breached the T&Cs by affixing the PCN.

trisontana

That BPA document makes interesting reading. I especially like the part where they say that the reason that the £100 figure was agreed on was because only one in three motorists pay the fake fines so the only way a PPC can earn sufficient "income" is if they ask £100.

Note to the BPA and PPCs:-

You are not supposed to earn any income from issuing these fake fines. They are only there to compensate for any loss suffered by the landowner. If you want to make legitimate money from the operation then do it via P&D tickets, or by charging a fee to whoever hires you. Simples!

Fergie76

While I have been rather quite on this recently, I have most certainly not forgotten about it. I sent my last letter to the hospital on 23 Dec 14, which also included an FOI. The 20 working days for a reply to that, is up on Friday, but I am not holding out much hope of getting a reply on time (although because I have said that now, they will prove me wrong lol).

I also received the an email from the ICO yesterday asking more information, even though I had already supplied it:

[FONT=&quot]Further to your email of 6 January 2015 I have now had the opportunity to discuss your case with one of my colleagues, and we need some further information from you.

In your email of 4 January you state you have complained to the DVLA and refer to an attached email. We do not have a copy of this.

I would be grateful if you could provide copies of your complaint to DVLA and its response. [/FONT]

So I have replied (with attachments again):

[FONT=&quot]I attached 3 emails to my email of 4 Jan 15, but have attached them again. I have also attached the contract that hospital have sent me and the name change deeds. The hospital assure me in a response to a FOI, that they these two documents (contract and name change deed) are correct and sole documentation related to the current operation: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Query on the legal company name[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am sorry but in our haste to respond we have provided incorrect information, for which we apologise[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]We used the term novation when this should have been name change[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The transition from FMG (Harrow) Ltd to APCOA FM (Harrow) Ltd is solely by name change; please see attached certificates of incorporation and name change. The contract provided is therefore the correct and sole documentation related to the current operation.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” (my bold on last sentence).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Since my last email to you, the DVLA say they are happy with the letters supplied by APCOA, however having consulted with a contract expert, he reliably informs me, that these two letters in no way can over-ride a legally binding contract.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In your email of the 4 Jan 15, you said that you were going to write to the Trust again, can you please tell me how this is progressing? I have not heard anything from the Trust on anything. Also, I wrote to the Trust on the 23 Dec 14 and other an acknowledgement of receipt, I have heard nothing else. This letter also contained a FOI request and I believe the 20 working day time frame to be up this Friday. So whilst they still have two days, I don’t hold out much hope given their track record on FOI’s to date.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hopefully this is what you’re after,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If not please don’t hesitate to get in contact.[/FONT]

And also a follow up email with:

[FONT=&quot]Further to my email I have just sent, I have just come across this document from the BPA where it discusses parking charges (page 5 onwards) - BPA Document[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It quite clearly proves the Private Parking Companies so called charges are penalties, here are two quotes from the attached document:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The current Code’s recommended maximum charge for a parking ticket of £150 is seen by many as excessive, and whilst only a small percentage of members charge this maximum it is seen by the public as ‘the parking charge’ that is made by all AOS members. It is also £20 higher than the maximum statutory penalty charge made in the London area – currently the highest statutory charge in the country. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Currently only one ticket in every three are paying. This means the pcn has to be high because you have to issue three pcn to get one to pay.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As you can see they are trying to align their charges to council parking tickets, which are clearly penalties authorised by legislation and their charges are clearly not based on a genuine pre-estimate of loss (GPEOL) and why is one person covering their charges for three tickets. As these tickets are not based on GPEOL, they have no reasonable cause to apply to DVLA for the Registered Keepers details and are therefore breaking the DPA with each and every request they make, in addition the other points I have raised in my earlier email.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]On Monday 19 Jan 15, Dave Smith of the BPA appeared on BBC Three Counties Radio with Iain Lee where he openly admitted that these penalties are not legally enforceable. Here is a link to the programme on BBC iPlayer - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02ghk7d and the interview starts at 1hr 21mins in. For your ease here is a transcript of the interview - http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/british-parking-association-says-fines.html[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
The interview can be heard on iplayer at this link.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02ghk7d

It is about 1:21 in. Iain Lee is interviewing Dave Smith from the British Parking Association.

Iain Lee: But those ones that for for a hundred quid fine for being fifteen minutes over, it's a bit tight isn't it?
David Smith: Yes I think 15 minutes is, is, is a little, a little ..and I think most motorists wouldn't receive a ticket for that..overstay 15 minutes
I: But they do it's automatically generated isn't it? By a computer so there is no human element going "Well this is only 5,10,15 minutes we'll let them off"; it's generated automatically
No there's always a human element involved. I've seen behind the scenes where these operations take place and you know it's not in these companies interests to issue a ticket that is wrong. They will want to make sure they are providing a service on behalf of the landowner
I: Well 15 minutes wouldn't be wrong and we know that it does happen so how is that justified?
Well, its not justified, I mean...
I: So why do they do it?
Well the parking operators are managing the land on behalf of a landowner, typically a retailer. They're providing a service to the landowner. What we don't want is a situation where motorists are parking all day every day in a car park they're not actually using the service available
I: But you've still not quite answered the question. Why is is fair to fine someone £100 for being 15 minutes over when they've spend a few hundred quid in the shop?
Well I mean its not always £100. I mean there are guidelines in place and we recommend that the maximum charge is £100...
I: Ok
...its around £80, £75 and then there's a discount as well to 40%. If people feel the ticket is unfair they can appeal that ticket.
I: I'm going to ask the question one more time Dave because maybe you're not hearing. Why do you think its acceptable to fine people up to £100 if they are 15 minutes over their limit?
Well it doesn't happen. In the majority of cases...
I: Well it does happen though. We know it happens. We've just spoken to someone who has instances of it happening. So why do you think its fair?
Well if it isn't fair Iain, then people should appeal that ticket and there are processes in place to allow them to do that.
I: Why do YOU think its fair?
I don't think it's fair that...
I: So it's unfair. You're from the British Parking Association and you're saying its unfair that people who are 15 minutes over the limit should be fined £100. Up to £100.
It simply isn't the case in the majority of instances
I: No but it happens and you just said its unfair
It happens in a minority of cases
I: Is it unfair?
It happens, but it isn't the norm Iain. It isn't something that happens...
I: Ok those minority of cases it happens, is it unfair?
That's for the appeals service to decide
I: Well not you from the...you can give me your opinion as someone from the British Parking Association. Is it unfair?
There are so many different instances that...
I: Ok here's an instance. Someone has parked for 15 minutes longer than they should have done. they get a fine of lets say £80. Is that fair?
As the current situation stands that is what motorists have to contend with and they should appeal that ticket if they think its unfair.
I: But is it (laughs) is it fair?
Iain it's not for us to decide it's for the appeals service to decide.
I: But you did just say it was unfair a minute ago and you seem to be backtracking
Well no, well no I'm just thinking about what I said and um er...
I: You're regretting it? So you thought it was unfair, then you reconsidered it and now you think its fair?
No, no, no you're twisting my words I'm afraid.
I: Ok, well you did say its unfair. That's not twisting, that's what you said.
I think what I'm saying is that there is a process in place for any motorist...
I: (laughs)
...who wants to appeal a ticket...
I: Right
...and it's for the appeals service to decide whether that ticket issued was fair or not.
I: Ok. Making it difficult for people to go shopping and do things isn't it?
Well no I think we've got to think about the landowner here. The landowner is providing a service for the motorist and what we don't want is a situation where the cost of that charge is £10..£20 and therefore the motorist says "Oh well I'll just park here all day then as I'm happy with that cost"
I: Yes yes, its a nice little earner isn't it?
I don't think so no.
I: How much do these companies make?
Parking is never free Iain we have to realise that
I: How much do these companies make Dave?
Well it varies you know
I: Well go on then give us an example
I don't know. I mean I don't know the financial figures of all these companies. That's not the way we operate, We're a membership association
I: Right cos a private landowner isn't going to do it for free are they?
Parking isn't free
I: Its a business
Well I think the misconception is that parking is free. A free parking space costs money. The cost of providing that service is the...
I: How much does it cost?
It depends. It depends on what the operator says that it costs
I: What about this thing that we've heard that if you get one of these they are not enforceable by law?
Well I mean they have to justify their costs to us
I: Are these fines sent out by these private parking companies...are they enforceable by law
They are not enforceable by law because...
I: So then why would anyone want to pay them
Because they are parking in a car park
I: Right
They are agreeing to the terms and conditions in that car park which are clearly set out in signage at the entrance to the car park and throughout the car park. Those guidelines are in place and they should be adhered to.
I: But if its not legally enforceable - and thanks for telling everyone that Dave because that's certainly going to help a lot of people - then you get one of these fines through the letterbox you might as well just rip it up if they can't enforce it. No ones going to pay it voluntarily are they?
Well they can be pursued by the parking company
I: But if its not legally enforceable whats that pursuance going to do apart from be classified as harassment?
Well no, it's not harassment it's..they've agreed when they park in that car park to abide by the terms and conditions; then they are agreeing in a contract...
I: You've just said it's not legally enforceable
What I'm saying is legislation doesn't exist on private land in the same way that...
I: So its not legally enforceable?
Well no. There is no legislation that exists...
I: So don't pay it then
What we would like to see is for government to regulate private parking
I: Well! One final question Dave. If someone is 15 minutes over their limit is it fair they should get an £85 fine?
It depends on circumstances of that particular parking act
I: Dave thank you very much indeed.

ManxRed

I think you might be muddying the waters with the last few bits.

If I were you I would stick to the 'no contract in place' issue. Otherwise you just give them an opportunity to change the subject and start waffling on about commercially justified penalties...

Fergie76

ManxRed wrote: »

I think you might be muddying the waters with the last few bits.

If I were you I would stick to the 'no contract in place' issue. Otherwise you just give them an opportunity to change the subject and start waffling on about commercially justified penalties...

I plan too, just thought I would draw their attention to it.

By the way, you were the 'Contract Expert' I consulted with, that I mentioned in my first email. Hope you don't mind... :rotfl:

ManxRed

Tell my boss that at my next Performance Review!

Fergie76

Just spoken to the lady that is dealing with my case at the ICO, which helped clear a few things up and help her better understand what I was on about.

Also another day and another FOI deadline passes (although the still have another hour and half).

Fergie76

Time to ratchet it up a notch and send a LBCC, I think.

Can the LBCC be sent via email or must it be delivered by post?

bod1467

I believe a LBCCC/LBA must be in writing - a real letter. You don't need to send it recorded - 1st class at the PO with a certificate of posting is fine.