id/proof of ownership needed for planning permission?

Pinto2013

HI, my upstairs stairs neighbour wants to build into the roof space.

I don't have a problem with that as such but it is a bit unclear as to whether he actually owns the roof space. I think he may be trying to pull a fast one by asking us to agree 'in principle' to build up into the space. Is also the sort of person who does what they want to and deals with consequences afterwards with the aid of solicitors.....takes a long time and gets expensive. Thing is if he doesn't own that space then it would have to be bought from the freeholder I think?

Is ID and proof of ownership required at any stage of the planning process?

Thanks in advance for any advice

Buzby

Not at all - many put in speculative applications before buying properties. If approved, they buy.

Just as some in London excavate their cellars for more space, this is no different. As a neighbour, him asking you is a courtesy, and has no other significance. If he has exclusive access to the loft space, there is no reason why he shouldn't make use of it - in much the same way if you had the same for the cellar.

davidmcn

You don't need to be an owner to apply for planning permission. If you're not the owner you need to serve notice of your application on whoever is.

G_M

Planning Permission is only half the story. Anyone can apply - not just the owner. Once granted it just means the council approves the plans, it does not give legal permission to build.

I could apply to convert your attic myself and the council might approve my plan, but I'm sure both you and your neighbour would object, legally, is my builders turned up!

This is a building with flats, yes? Where - England? And how many flats?

Who owns the freehold for the building? I assume that you and your neighbour each own a lease to your own flat, but there is also a freeholder.

Next - what do your respective leases say you each own? Critically, does your neighbour's lease say he owns the attic? If not, then the freeholder does.

Even if he does own the attic, his lease will almost certainly require that he gets the freeholder's permission before making any 'structural changes'.

So I repeat: who owns the freehold?

1) Read your own lease (his will be similar) to see what you can/can't do
2) Download (£3) the 'Freehold Title' from the land registry and check who owns it.
3) Download the leasehold Title for your neigbour's flat AND the associated Plan. With luck it will show whether he owns the attic.

Pinto2013

Right - I obviously need to go away and do some research.

By the by: yes in England: 3 flats in a conversion.

My lease makes it clear you need Freeholder permission to do structural works.

Owner of top flat has simply announced the intention of wanting to build up, has said he will go to lvt if we don't agree but I do think he doesn't own the space. I say this because we have had to pay for some work in the loft ie insulation on the floor of it out of service charge. If he owned the space I would have thought he would meet that cost?

If he doesn't own the space but can buy it I wouldn't have a problem with the conversion but I don't want legal problems down the line if it isn't all done properly.

So - off to research and see what the lease says.

Thanks again.

PasturesNew

Just because he needs permission from the freeholder - and (let's assume) doesn't own the roof space...... that doesn't stop him going ahead and doing what he likes anyway.

Plenty of people do that. You see it all the time. Even when you tell them these things it doesn't sink in and you see them going ahead and doing their own thing anyway.

Just stick to what's of interest to you: are you bothered about the building work that would be going on? Do you have any legitimate problems with his plans?

Leave it up to him to worry about future problems that will become unavoidable if he's cut corners, or didn't do things properly.

You can't help people ...... they'll do their own thing anyway so it's best to keep your nose out of it, then give it a nifty "told you so" when they hit the problems in the future. Or, give a concerned look, before shutting your door and sniggering "told you so .... arrogant !!!!" when they can't hear you

G_M

I'd add words of caution to your post pasturesnew - an unauthorised conversion of the roofspace could backfire on the OP in the future

* Repairing issues would no longer be clearcut, if the lease states the roofspace is common space, with freeholder access

* resale of the OPs flat could be problomatic if a potential buyer (or his lender) was put off by the unauthorised change or if the lender refused pointblank to lend until the roofspace was returned to original state!

If, as is common in small converted buildings, the freehold is jointly owned by the 3 leaseholders, OP should get together with his 3rd neighbour in their capacity as majority freeholders, and make sure any conversion is agreed, and the lease(s) altered appropriately.

There should also be compensation (financial) for the freeholder (split between the 3 of them if I am right) for the loss of the roofspace, equal in value to the increased value of the neighbour's lease.

But step 1 is to identify the freeholder.

If the neighbour ignores the rules and just goes ahead, I would advise

a) politely requesting he stop and then

b) obtaining a court order instructing him to stop.

If he still went ahead he'd be in contempt of court - a criminal offence.

Pinto2013

Hi.

Yes we each of us have a share of the freehold.

I know the roof space has had to be accessed for various repair/survey reasons and so that could be problematic. It is an old building in a seaside town so - alas - the roof needs quite a bit of tlc. Also there are water tanks up there for other flats.

Not being able to sell would be a very big worry for me. Possibly the only person who might buy if this isn't all done properly would be the upstairs neighbour who does keep making me offers to sell to him......

The building is run by a manager on our behalf. He had been copied into the original request (which came in over the bh w/e with a five day deadline for replies!)) and I have learnt that he began checking up on things inc the lease for the top flat on his return yesterday (looks as if it is owned by the freeholders) and he has asked for agreement from other two of us to get advice from a solicitor re interpretation of lease and arranging permissions, getting costs paid etc.

Compensation is an interesting thought but does make sense if the roof is currently owned by the freeholders.

Lease and service charge would have to be altered. This is a bigger deal than I thought.

Neighbour points out other houses in the same road have had loft conversions but I do wonder if they are complete houses not converted as this seems like a mighty complicated business especially for the one who wants to do the converting.

Thanks again.

Pinto2013

Hi G_m, you seem v clued up on all this sort of stuff so i wonder if I can pose another question (answers from all welcome of course!).

I have appointed an estate agent as I intend to sell in the near future. Neighbour is now copying my estate agent into the emails to do with his application to build up including a reply from a solicitor. He is using words like conflict as in 'if you don't agree there will be a conflict`' and trying to imply that large legal bills have been run up without his knowledge. Untrue. Bills were met by other lessees when work done was on their behalf and were not met by him. This seems like some kind of harrassment - well, certainly feels like it.

Paranoiac ? ? but worried this person is trying to create negative 'spin' re any potential sale I may make? I am worried about this but unsure as to what to do.

Sorry if I am whinging but this person is difficult, litigious and very controlling and really, really doesn't like not getting what they want!

I am now even doubting that they actually want to build up but maybe saying this to create difficulties. No money has been spent on this intention so far......

Any help most gratefully received!

Thanks in advance.

TBagpuss

you could respond to he neighbour saying something like "I am certainly open to you buying the loft space to convert, subject of course to appropriate planning permission and buildings regulations etc, and to agreement being reached regarding the changes which would be needed in relatin to the freeholders agreement and repairing obligations.

Obviously any changes would require changes to the leases and updating of the repairing obligations and freeholders agreements to reflect the change in ownership / control of the loft.

I presume that you would meet the costs of making any necessary changes and look forward to receiving your detailed proposals for consideration. nice I have these I shall be able to give you a more definite response. "

That way, ou are making it clear that you are not opposed in to the idea in principal but that it will need to be done properly and it also flags up the issue of the freeholder and the exisiting agreements, which he may not have thought about at all.

Quite apart from anything else, you'll need to know whether the changes are likely to mean the costs of upkeep go up, or down, or remain the same. There will, presumably, need to be arrangements for access to the water tanks unless he is proposing that these are re-sited, in which case he will need to provide details of his proposals and an agreement would be needed about how that work was to be done, and who would pay for it.

bryanb

As I understand things it isn't possible for a freehold to be shared. Three leaseholders can form a company to own the freehold, each then has an equal share in the company and an equal say in what happens to the property.