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Reclaim bank charges after PPI rebate
dave_fallow
Posts: 13 Forumite
Hi all, I've just had a PPI complaint upheld with HSBC. It was on a personal loan between 2006 and 2009. I paid out just over a grand on the policy and have been offered a rebate of £1552.
Now, those PPI payments were taken from my HSBC current account. Over the last 5 years that current account has been subject to some pretty hefty bank charges for various things. However, had that £1000 PPI money been in my account, I wouldn't have incurred any of those charges whatsoever.
In the letter they have stated that the rebate is supposed to put me back in the same financial position that I would've been in had I not paid the policy. If that's the case then my current account balance should've been £1000 higher for the last five years and every single bank charge since 2009 should be written off.
Do I have a likely case with a claim here and if so, can I treat this as a separate issue and still accept the PPI rebate offer without jeopardising this new claim?
Any thoughts are really appreciated. Thanks
Now, those PPI payments were taken from my HSBC current account. Over the last 5 years that current account has been subject to some pretty hefty bank charges for various things. However, had that £1000 PPI money been in my account, I wouldn't have incurred any of those charges whatsoever.
In the letter they have stated that the rebate is supposed to put me back in the same financial position that I would've been in had I not paid the policy. If that's the case then my current account balance should've been £1000 higher for the last five years and every single bank charge since 2009 should be written off.
Do I have a likely case with a claim here and if so, can I treat this as a separate issue and still accept the PPI rebate offer without jeopardising this new claim?
Any thoughts are really appreciated. Thanks
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Comments
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If you were being charged every month it is not equal to you having £1000 in the bank at the start of the period. A back of the fag packet calculation would point out that the PPI charges (ignoring the interest element here as it was put on at the end as "compensation") would say you paid approx £27.78 a month unless I'm missing something obvious - can you honestly say that each charge was 100% down to that payment and not your general spending?
Sam Vimes' Boots Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness:
People are rich because they spend less money. A poor man buys $10 boots that last a season or two before he's walking in wet shoes and has to buy another pair. A rich man buys $50 boots that are made better and give him 10 years of dry feet. The poor man has spent $100 over those 10 years and still has wet feet.
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You've had a PPI refund, not "rebate". That plus the interest element paid in addition to the refund is all you will receive with regard PPI compensation.dave_fallow wrote: »can I treat this as a separate issue and still accept the PPI rebate offer without jeopardising this new claim?
As above, I doubt you'll be able to successfully argue that Bank charges you incurred were solely down to paying for PPI.0 -
If you were being charged every month it is not equal to you having £1000 in the bank at the start of the period. A back of the fag packet calculation would point out that the PPI charges (ignoring the interest element here as it was put on at the end as "compensation") would say you paid approx £27.78 a month unless I'm missing something obvious - can you honestly say that each charge was 100% down to that payment and not your general spending?
Agreed, that's why I've said every charge since 2009. The PPI policy ran from 06-09 so as far as I'm concerned they've owed me £1000 since the end of the PPI policy in 09. I'm not trying to say that the charges were a direct result of the PPI policy, my point is that they've hit me with charges for payments going out with insufficient funds all the while they've owed me £1000. Add that £1000 to my account balance at the point the charge was incurred and it wouldn't have happened. Therefore I feel as though I should have a case to claim those back.0 -
If you were being charged every month it is not equal to you having £1000 in the bank at the start of the period. A back of the fag packet calculation would point out that the PPI charges (ignoring the interest element here as it was put on at the end as "compensation") would say you paid approx £27.78 a month unless I'm missing something obvious - can you honestly say that each charge was 100% down to that payment and not your general spending?
This is the issue and why consequential loss is a difficult thing to argue with loans. Would you really have kept that £1,000 in your bank account for safe keeping? Or would you have just spent it on holidays or consumer goods?
If you (the OP) can honestly show that all of your use of the account during this period was for bare minimal living costs then you may have a case. If you've been spending on luxuries and entertainment then the charges are down to your own indiscipline as much as the PPI.0 -
Insider101 wrote: »This is the issue and why consequential loss is a difficult thing to argue with loans. Would you really have kept that £1,000 in your bank account for safe keeping? Or would you have just spent it on holidays or consumer goods?
If you (the OP) can honestly show that all of your use of the account during this period was for bare minimal living costs then you may have a case. If you've been spending on luxuries and entertainment then the charges are down to your own indiscipline as much as the PPI.
This is the difficult area of the complaint I suppose. Should it come to this I don't see that it is down to me to prove what I could or would have spent the money on. I also don't see that it will be down to the bank to make presumptions on what I would've spent it on. The cold hard fact is that on numerous dates when I have incurred bank charges HSBC have owed me money of a sufficient value for me to have avoided it.
Avoiding charges is also accumulative so if this 1k had help me to avoid one charge, the money I lost through paying it would've gone towards helping miss the next one and so on and so on.
My genuine feeling is that this this 1k would've got me out of a difficult financial situation and would 100% have helped in reducing bank charges, possibly avoiding any at all.
Thanks for the opinions, I'm going to raise a claim through the bank then the ombudsman and see how it goes.0 -
Remember that as you are making the complaint, it'll be you providing the evidence to support it (not the bank providing evidence to defend themselves) e.g. evidence you had a slightly positive or neutral expenditure each month that meant the PPI payment tipped you over the limit. Essentially my point was that your sum suggests you paid about £28 a month in PPI - was that sum really the only thing tipping you into going over your limits every month or was it other spending?
This does not mean the bank won't autopay for whatever unpredictable reason but they did win the "unfair charges" court case in 2009 so they may just reject your complaint, who knowsSam Vimes' Boots Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness:
People are rich because they spend less money. A poor man buys $10 boots that last a season or two before he's walking in wet shoes and has to buy another pair. A rich man buys $50 boots that are made better and give him 10 years of dry feet. The poor man has spent $100 over those 10 years and still has wet feet.
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Unless the OP can show that they were in Financial Hardship (the Bank's criteria, not the Op's) then it's very doubtful indeed that any charges will be refunded at all.This does not mean the bank won't autopay for whatever unpredictable reason but they did win the "unfair charges" court case in 2009 so they may just reject your complaint, who knows
In addition, FOS won't accept referrals about "unfair" bank charges so the Bank won't be under any pressure to "auto-pay" to avoid the FOS fee. The OP has already had his PPI redressed, but he will be very hard-pressed to show that £28 extra a month was enough on it's own to incur Bank charges. The Bank will look at other spending like subscription television, mobile phone contracts, eating out and other such luxuries and only if the Op was struggling to pay for essential services will they consider refunding (some) charges.
Do note that you paid the £1K over a long period of time, so you wouldn't have ever had this amount as a lump sum.dave_fallow wrote: »My genuine feeling is that this this 1k would've got me out of a difficult financial situation and would 100% have helped in reducing bank charges, possibly avoiding any at all.0 -
No, the single premium was paid up front but you paid it monthly, you were never £1k down at any single point, but only £27 a month or so (like Nasqueron said). You can't make up the rules because "as far as your concerned". You are right they should look at consequential loss, but if they check your accounts and your withdrawing large chunks of cash regularly, spending £80 a month on Sky, £50 a month on mobile phone and regularly eating out then that will be the cause of your charges not the PPI. I doubt HSBC would have given you the loan if your income was tight.dave_fallow wrote: »Agreed, that's why I've said every charge since 2009. The PPI policy ran from 06-09 so as far as I'm concerned they've owed me £1000 since the end of the PPI policy in 09. I'm not trying to say that the charges were a direct result of the PPI policy, my point is that they've hit me with charges for payments going out with insufficient funds all the while they've owed me £1000. Add that £1000 to my account balance at the point the charge was incurred and it wouldn't have happened. Therefore I feel as though I should have a case to claim those back.0 -
The Financial Control Authority's handbook on PPI states the following:
"DISP App 3.9.2
01/12/2010
FCA
In assessing redress, the firm should consider whether there are any other further losses that flow from its breach or failing that were reasonably foreseeable as a consequence of the firm's breach or failing, for example, where the payment protection contract's cost or rejected claims contributed to affordability issues for the associated loan or credit which led to arrears charges, default interest, penal interest rates or other penalties levied by the lender."
From the above, I think you're perfectly entitled to reclaim charges.0 -
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