Wills & Probate

tafer2uk

I don't know if my question is going to make sense and it probably sounds dodgy but here goes.

If someone dies who has a will is it possible for the estate (cash only) to be disposed of without the solicitor who holds the will knowing and probate finding out? Especially if they have access to their bank accounts?

If it is will it mean somebody has had to declare something illegally? And at what point if ever would a solicitors think hang on a minute this person would be xxx years old now? Or audit wills they hold?

Thanks

g6jns_2

tafer2uk wrote: »

I don't know if my question is going to make sense and it probably sounds dodgy but here goes.

If someone dies who has a will is it possible for the estate (cash only) to be disposed of without the solicitor who holds the will knowing and probate finding out? Especially if they have access to their bank accounts?

If it is will it mean somebody has had to declare something illegally? And at what point if ever would a solicitors think hang on a minute this person would be xxx years old now? Or audit wills they hold?

Thanks

You cannot obtain probate without access to the original will. Legally you can't get access to the bank accounts without authority such as getting probate as executor. Unless the net estate is above the IHT threshold then there is non downside to dealing with the estate properly other than the bureaucracy involved.

dzug1

I think the question is about doing it illegally and the chances of being found out if you do - particularly if it's distributed in a different way to the will


I don't know the answer

g6jns_2

dzug1 wrote: »

I think the question is about doing it illegally and the chances of being found out if you do - particularly if it's distributed in a different way to the will


I don't know the answer

It really depends on how gullible the bank are. They may be willing to pay the funeral costs direct to the undertaker but beyond that they should ask for proper authority. The bank might be liable to the beneficiaries but of course not all of them know that they are one. The OP needs to give some more detail.

Savvy_Sue

It's very rare for all the estate to be in bank accounts, eg most people own furniture and clothes which technically form part of the estate, even if they are of no discernible value.

There are cases where people just don't bother seeking probate (or letters of administration if intestate), usually where one half of a couple dies. The problems only start to arise when the surviving party dies, and eg there's half a house which has never been dealt with.

But if the question boils down to "would the solicitor notice?" then it's possible, but since the client would be the deceased, how would they do anything about it? And they wouldn't know whether their former client had made another will elsewhere. Either way, unless they were instructed to do something (ie get paid), they're unlikely to do anything.

However, the answer to "would someone have had to do something illegal?" then very possibly. It might depend on the amounts involved, and whether the accounts were all in joint names.

Crabapple

Solicitors will undoubtedly still hold Wills for people who must have died. I've worked in 3 firms and each had Wills that were so old there is no way the person is still alive.

The practicalities are that the Will is not always required, it depends on the assets involved. It might also as Sue said be that there was a property which was not transferred and as the Will might still be required years after the event - eg. couple die, their children continue to live in the house etc, it might still be needed. Even if not they can't be destroyed withouth authority from the person who made them.

Realistically it's not possible to make contact with even all people who made Wills 10 years ago - people move and don't say etc, and the longer it is the less likely you would be able to track them down, so that's not something that a Firm would usually do, particularly if the response is going to be "but they died years ago".

Your question about accessing funds. Yes, it could be done for small amounts of cash with a statutory declaration where a person would be lying by swearing it (saying there was no Will, and they were the person entitled to the funds), or for larger amounts if a third party could access the account and didn't tell the bank the account holder had died.

growler834

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

It's very rare for all the estate to be in bank accounts, eg most people own furniture and clothes which technically form part of the estate, even if they are of no discernible value.

Not that rare - some deceased will have been in a care home, have no home to sell, no personal furniture & little in personal possessions of any value. They may only have cash in the bank.

My widowed MIL is in this position - her house was sold to pay the care fees & her only possessions are her clothes, a few photos, CDs etc & her wedding ring. Everything she owns of value is in cash in her account which, if I was unscrupulous, I could withdraw (before her death) as I have POA. Her will leaves everything split 4 ways between family members but at the rate her cash is being eroded there will be little to divide after funeral costs. If we didn't bother getting her will from the solicitor no one would probably be aware. However, to cover myself as executor, I would still get the will & do everything by the book so that no one could accuse me of being dishonest.

tafer2uk

Thanks for all the replies, I guess the closest situation is similar to that of Growlers, the person in question was in a nursing home and had no tangible assets ie furniture. The estate was purely cash in a bank account which someone else (not a partner or blood relative) was a joint signatory (possibly account holder). However the person who had access to the accounts wasn't a beneficiary of the will in existence, however they have acquired all the money. I suppose I was just thinking to myself how common these scenarios could be if there are no official check and balances in place and it is purely down to the honesty of individuals.

Mojisola

tafer2uk wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies, I guess the closest situation is similar to that of Growlers, the person in question was in a nursing home and had no tangible assets ie furniture. The estate was purely cash in a bank account which someone else (not a partner or blood relative) was a joint signatory (possibly account holder). However the person who had access to the accounts wasn't a beneficiary of the will in existence, however they have acquired all the money. I suppose I was just thinking to myself how common these scenarios could be if there are no official check and balances in place and it is purely down to the honesty of individuals.

If the account was a joint account then everything in it belonged to the survivor.

pmlindyloo

tafer2uk wrote: »

I don't know if my question is going to make sense and it probably sounds dodgy but here goes.

If someone dies who has a will is it possible for the estate (cash only) to be disposed of without the solicitor who holds the will knowing and probate finding out? Especially if they have access to their bank accounts?

If it is will it mean somebody has had to declare something illegally? And at what point if ever would a solicitors think hang on a minute this person would be xxx years old now? Or audit wills they hold?

Thanks

So scenario.

Solicitor holds the will.

Person who made the will dies.

Someone gets the death certificate and then takes this to the bank and asks for the money to be transferred to their account.

All perfectly possible.

I have done this myself where only one bank account was involved when my mother died.

Are there any safeguards?

Solicitors do not look at wills and see if anyone is of the age when they might be about to die. The wills are usually in storage so no safeguard here.

Death certificates do not have to be issued to a member of the family. They could be given to someone who was this them when they died. So no safeguard there.

If the sum of money is relatively small the bank needs to see the death certificate, a copy of the person's ID and sign a form saying that person has a right to the money because they are .............(executor/daughter/son) Money is transferred to their account. Bank covered because of the 'indemnity form'. No safeguard there.

So any safeguards would have to come from members of the deceased's family querying what has happened.

If the deceased was estranged from the family/had no family then no safeguards there.

So all perfectly possible!

dzug1

tafer2uk wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies, I guess the closest situation is similar to that of Growlers, the person in question was in a nursing home and had no tangible assets ie furniture. The estate was purely cash in a bank account which someone else (not a partner or blood relative) was a joint signatory (possibly account holder). However the person who had access to the accounts wasn't a beneficiary of the will in existence, however they have acquired all the money. I suppose I was just thinking to myself how common these scenarios could be if there are no official check and balances in place and it is purely down to the honesty of individuals.

Not necessarily illegitimately - and difficult to prove either way. They may have taken the money before death


Checks and balances depend on relatives, etc, complaining, and may not be overly effective even then