Buying electronics online - refund conditions when changing my mind

SuperHan

societys_child wrote: »

And the tv of your choosing would already be on display and available for demo, you cant just rip an identical one open and set it up yourself. Most sensible people know this.

Are you sure? My local Argos has about 2 TVs on display, but they stock significantly more models than this. I doubt they'd let me pick one out of the catalogue and would then switch it on before I buy.

bris

SuperHan wrote: »

Are you sure? My local Argos has about 2 TVs on display, but they stock significantly more models than this. I doubt they'd let me pick one out of the catalogue and would then switch it on before I buy.

No they wouldn't and that's the whole point, the DSR's were totally unfair to the retailer and so the new laws, which pretend to be a boost to the old DSR's are really about making it fairer for the retailers.

Big business pays MP's huge sums of money to petition parliament for their ends, this is one that has been redressed.

The wording is contradicting for a reason, so they can be interpreted to suit the retailer.

The customers will now have to learn that buying 5 dresses to return 4 of them is no longer an option, the customer has brought these changes on.

frugal_mike

bris wrote: »

The wording is contradicting for a reason, so they can be interpreted to suit the retailer.

The wording doesn't need to be contradictory to favour the retailer, just write it to favour the retailer if that's your intention.

bris wrote: »

The customers will now have to learn that buying 5 dresses to return 4 of them is no longer an option, the customer has brought these changes on.

That doesn't make sense. The CSR's don't even vaguely stop that. I've never been in a clothes shop where I couldn't try on clothes before, so it isn't unreasonable to try on clothes bought online before returning them. If a retailer expects to be able to sell clothes online then they should expect people to return a lot of clothes, in just the same way as they will take a large number of clothes into a changing room in a shop but only choose to keep some of them. They chose to sell online so will have to factor in the costs.

alexto

To bring the discussion back to my original points.

First: do online retailers have the right to refuse to refund entirely if I simply opened the package? @frugal_mike above above said they all must but that they can also refuse if the package was opened (I know that @frugal_mike was merely interpreting the CCR but if that's the case, then to me that makes little to no sense to be honest).

The CCR seems clear that some refund must exist, with a possible deduction if the wear level is serious (see second point below). However, virtually all online retailers (except Amazon) demand in their T&Cs that the returned product must be unused. This either violates the CCR or I am missing something.

Second: As I read it, it's not about whether a particular product (e.g. hard drive, kettle, TV etc) is normally available on display to try out in high-street shops, nor whether high-street retailer normally allow you to open a sealed box and try it in a shop. It's about whether, given you are allowed to try it in a shop (or given it's already on display for demo), then the wear level of your returned product should not be beyond that, i.e. beyond of a product that was tried in a shop, i.e. during a few minutes, on the spot, i.e. not used intensively to suffer serious wear.

In that case, then online retailers cannot charge you extra for simply opening the product, so if they do so in the case of a pristine return condition, then it either violates the CCR or I'm missing something.

I disagree with @neilmcl saying "You are supposed to have the same rights you would have if purchased from a store". Selling online should provide different rights, even for the mere reason that it's impossible to see the before making the payment (any judge will rule in favour of the retailer if the buyer tried it out in the shop and changed his mind afterwards, but the same won't necessarily hold if the product was sold online). Also, selling online provides a number of advantages to the retailer (starting with having more customers). You simply can't have the same rights when the conditions are not the same.

Alex.

cookie365

We won't know the true answers to either of your questions until they're tested in court.

rustyboy21

IMO the new rules have made it a more level playing field.


Hopefully it will start making people buy from the high street a bit more now, if all this confusion over the laws makes it difficult for them to buy something, then send it back, but they don't get the full refund which they were expecting.


The DSR was weighted too much in favour of the consumer, which meant they could do things and get away with it, the retailer had to refund. Now there is the threat of not refunding the full amount, so it doesn't make online shopping an easier shop to buy from.


Cant wait to see it in action and see how annoyed consumers will get, if they don't get it all their way.

unholyangel

alexto wrote: »

To bring the discussion back to my original points.

First: do online retailers have the right to refuse to refund entirely if I simply opened the package? @frugal_mike above above said they all must but that they can also refuse if the package was opened (I know that @frugal_mike was merely interpreting the CCR but if that's the case, then to me that makes little to no sense to be honest).

The CCR seems clear that some refund must exist, with a possible deduction if the wear level is serious (see second point below). However, virtually all online retailers (except Amazon) demand in their T&Cs that the returned product must be unused. This either violates the CCR or I am missing something.

Second: As I read it, it's not about whether a particular product (e.g. hard drive, kettle, TV etc) is normally available on display to try out in high-street shops, nor whether high-street retailer normally allow you to open a sealed box and try it in a shop. It's about whether, given you are allowed to try it in a shop (or given it's already on display for demo), then the wear level of your returned product should not be beyond that, i.e. beyond of a product that was tried in a shop, i.e. during a few minutes, on the spot, i.e. not used intensively to suffer serious wear.

In that case, then online retailers cannot charge you extra for simply opening the product, so if they do so in the case of a pristine return condition, then it either violates the CCR or I'm missing something.

I disagree with @neilmcl saying "You are supposed to have the same rights you would have if purchased from a store". Selling online should provide different rights, even for the mere reason that it's impossible to see the before making the payment (any judge will rule in favour of the retailer if the buyer tried it out in the shop and changed his mind afterwards, but the same won't necessarily hold if the product was sold online). Also, selling online provides a number of advantages to the retailer (starting with having more customers). You simply can't have the same rights when the conditions are not the same.

Alex.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/310044/bis-13-1368-consumer-contracts-information-cancellation-and-additional-payments-regulations-guidance.pdf

Specifically, it goes into two examples:

I sell toys online. A customer recently ordered a large toy model to assemble,
to be sent by express delivery, but changed their mind and returned it. Not
only was it not returned in the original bubble wrap and brown box I used, but
the model’s box with photo and description was torn and the plastic packets
containing the plastic bricks inside had been opened. What can I do?
16. You cannot deduct for the bubble wrap and brown box since it would
have been reasonable for the customer to remove these to see the item in the
way they would in a shop. However, it would not have been necessary to go
further and open the box nor especially to open the sealed packets. You will
therefore be able to reduce the refund to reflect the diminished value. In
addition, you will only need to refund the standard cost of delivery (provided
this was offered) and not the full cost of the express delivery chosen by the
customer. And provided that you told the customer that the cost of return
delivery would fall to them, you need not pay for that.


A customer has changed their mind and returned a toaster bought online. The
box is intact but there are crumbs in the toaster. Can I deduct any money from
the refund?
17. The consumer should be permitted to inspect the toaster in the same way
that they might in a shop to ensure it is as described. Money should not
therefore be deducted if it is reasonable for the consumer to remove the
packaging to inspect the item. However, using the toaster goes beyond what
is needed to ascertain the nature of the toaster, and is not something the
consumer would do in a shop. Money can therefore be deducted to reflect
diminished value. The consumer need not ‘test’ the toaster since, if the toaster
proves to be faulty the consumer has rights under other legislation.

I suspect in the first instance....the 2nd box wasnt necessary to open due to their being a picture and description on the box.

I think the above guidance makes it clear the new CCRs are not to "test" an item as you would in a shop but rather to "inspect" or "examine" an item as you would in a shop.

However, this is only applicable IF the retailer complies with section about informing you of your right to cancel in a durable medium.

(11) Paragraph (9) does not apply if the trader has failed to provide the consumer with the
information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part
2.

alexto

@unholyangel: Thanks for those examples, they do paint a better picture. It's still interesting how in the first example they say it's not ok to open the product box, but in the 2nd example it is ...

alexto

unholyangel wrote: »

However, this is only applicable IF the retailer complies with section about informing you of your right to cancel in a durable medium.

(11) Paragraph (9) does not apply if the trader has failed to provide the consumer with the information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part 2.

That could make things interesting for online retailers who are still quoting the DSR (with 7 days cancellation) and not the CCR (with 14 days cancellation) ... which is the majority of online retailers at the moment.

wealdroam

alexto wrote: »

That could make things interesting for online retailers who are still quoting the DSR (with 7 days cancellation) and not the CCR (with 14 days cancellation) ... which is the majority of online retailers at the moment.

Seven working days starting the day after receipt of the goods, versus fourteen calender days.

Could be as little as one day difference around Easter or Christmas.

Nothing to get too excited about.

But I do agree that if a seller still states something that is less than fourteen days, then that could be seen as 'failing to provide the required information'.