G24 PCN - this is fun !!

meld3

Having read nearly every thread and sticky on here, and followed advice thus far, this is where I am at (and wondering what do next):


PCN received yesterday to me as Registered Keeper (I was not the driver but have not told them this. The background was an overstay at a large retail park via ANPR.


I appealed via the G24 website using the Template letter available somewhere on here, and added some Terms of my own (in red) at the end:-

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Re: CPCN number XXXXXXXXX


I have received your parking invoice impersonating a 'parking ticket' and will be complaining in the strongest terms to your client since I am no customer of yours and no longer one of theirs, now. No doubt you convinced them that your operation is some sort of 'parking space maximisation scheme' when it is nothing of the sort and is simply there to maximise your own profits.


I decline your invitation to pay or name the driver, neither of which are required of me as the keeper of the vehicle. This is my appeal and all liability to your company is denied on the following basis:


A. The amount is neither a genuine tariff/fee for parking, nor is it based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss.


B. You are not the landowner and do not have locus standi.


C. Your signage was not sufficiently prominent nor clearly worded and consideration did not flow from both parties, so there was no contract.




If you choose not to cancel this invoice you must issue a rejection letter in reply to my appeal, explaining:


1. The legal basis of your charge (i.e. breach, trespass or contractual fee). As keeper, I cannot be expected to guess the basis of your allegation.


If you try to rely upon ParkingEye v Beavis at POPLA, I will point out that it was a flawed decision, it is not binding, and it is set for the Court of Appeal. There is clearly no commercial justification for this punitive charge and no case law to support it.


2. Proof of your locus standi to offer contracts to drivers at this site.


3. Your explanation of the consideration that you believe flowed from the driver, and from yourselves.


4. A copy of the signage site map and close-up pictures of the signs in situ at the time, taken at a comparable time of day in similar light conditions.


5. The means to make an appeal to POPLA, otherwise you will be reported to the BPA and the DVLA.


A certificate of posting will be obtained for all my written responses and I intend to claim my costs when I prevail.




In addition, by responding in any way other than cancellation of your PCN, the following Terms & Conditions will be incorporated into the dispute and deemed as accepted by G24 Ltd:

a) a £50 Administration Charge will be payable for each letter or electronic response I am required to produce, payable by G24 Ltd to a registered charity of my choosing, within 28 days of my response. You will be notified through the issue of an Administration Charge Notice (ACN).

b) Administration Charges paid within 14 days days will be reduced to £25.

c) Administration Charges cannot be offset against any future settlement and are payable as stand alone charges.

d) There is no appeal process in law against Administration Charges, they are not a regulated charge but can be avoided by cancellation of your PCN.


Yours (hoping we can do business together because I have a charity that badly need funds)


MELD3

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Response received THE SAME DAY by email:




RE: Contractual Parking Charge Notice XXXXXXXXX

Thank you for your email.

We respond as follows :

1. In relation to your suggestion that your parking charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss we confirm we have obtained legal advice in this regard and have been advised that not only can our parking charges be justified on the basis that they are in line with the British Parking Association’s guidelines, and that they amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss, but they are likely to amount to liquidated damages (where the issue of pre-estimate of loss is not relevant). This is because the Court’s position is that where the parties to a contract agree to fix the amount which is to be paid by way of damages in the event of a breach of contract - which is the basis of the contract detailed on our signage - a sum stipulated in this way (particularly in circumstances where there is difficulty in calculating a precise estimation) is classed as liquidated damages. Either way, our parking charges are fully enforceable and no not amount to a “penalty”. You should also be aware that in accordance with the case of Robophone Facilities v Blank the onus of proving that an amount claimed is a penalty, rather than liquidated damages, is upon you (as the party against whom the parking charge is claimed);

2. You do not specify in what regard you consider our signage does not conform to the British Parking Association’s Code of Practice. Accordingly, we are unable to respond specifically. However, we are able to confirm to you that we are confident that all our signage does comply with the British Parking Association’s Code of Practice and this is supported by the fact that we have been successfully audited successfully by an independent assessor on behalf of the British Parking Association; and

3. Again, you do not specify in which way you allege we not have authority to issue charges over the land where the car park is located. However, we can assure you that the parking management at the car park where you received a parking charge has been contracted to us. Again, we are able to confirm that we have been successfully audited by an independent assessor on behalf of the British Parking Association.

You now have one of the following options available to you:

1. Pay the outstanding Parking Charge. Payment of your Contractual Parking Charge Notice can be made via the payment line: 0845 452 7777 or by sending a cheque or postal order to G24 Limited, PO Box 3320, Gerrards Cross, Buckinghamshire, SL9 8WT.

2. Make an appeal to POPLA within 28 days - The Independent Appeals Service by completing the accompanying form or by making your appeal online at ???? your POPLA verification code is: xxxxxxxxxx. Please be advised that if you opt for independent arbitration of your case, the ability to pay the parking charge at the reduced rate of £42.00 will be at end. If you opt to pay the parking charge you will be unable to appeal to POPLA.

3. If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.

4. Supply copies of your receipts for the day in question or your bank statement with your private details erased showing the transaction(s) on our client's site within 14 days. Please do not send in original documents as they will not be returned.

Customer Services
G24 Ltd

To Pay your Parking Charge visit ???? or call our payment line on 0845 452 7777.

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Interestingly, they did not dispute, decline, vary or reject my Terms and therefore my next response will be submitted with an Admin Charge Notice for £50 which I will pursue through a very good debt collecting law firm that I use a lot at work....


However, I need to draft my next response and am unsure which angle is most likely to succeed at a popla appeal:-


1) "you don't have permission to issue tickets without proof of a contract between you and the landowner" or
2) "your loss is penalty and not a genuine loss"
3) "you signage specifies 'parking time' but your charge is for entry / exit which is very different.
4) "copies of receipts are irrelevant as purchases were made in cash and there is no legal basis for me to retain receipts longer than required to return goods, which was several days before your PCN arrived and therefore they are now lost"


Also, if I spin this out for 28 days and then advise who the driver was, does the process and clock have to restart to the Driver ?




Thanks in advance.

The_Deep

With regard to all that red ink, you are urinating to windward, are you not familiar with Unfair Terms and Conditions in Contracts Regulations, you need to reduce your fees.

Dee140157

As for the POPLA appeal. I suggest you look at examples linked to in post 3 of newbie thread for full details of what to cover
You have no GPEOL,landowner authority, but I would put more into signage point. You also need an ANPR paragraph or two. Perhaps familiarise yourself with the UTCCR point as well if you wish to pursue that angle separately.

Redx

and edit out the personal popla code from post #1

you can see plenty of letter examples by hot bring on here as he hates them with a passion !

but dont miss getting the popla appeal in before day 28 expires

Guys_Dad

That's not your real POPLA code reproduced above is it? If so, remove it at once.

meld3

The_Deep wrote: »

With regard to all that red ink, you are urinating to windward, are you not familiar with Unfair Terms and Conditions in Contracts Regulations, you need to reduce your fees.

Interesting.
I can't see how my terms are any different to theirs ?
If theirs are Unfair, then so are mine and I will use that as a defence against them, but I offered my Terms and explained how to avoid them, but they did not avoid, decline or vary them, hence they are deemed to be accepted exactly the same as I was deemed to accept theirs.


If not, then why not ?

The_Deep

You have missed the point. Yes, their T&C are unfair, but so are yours, a judge will throw them out. Is that what you want?

meld3

The_Deep wrote: »

You have missed the point. Yes, their T&C are unfair, but so are yours, a judge will throw them out. Is that what you want?

That is my point, it would be practically impossible to rule one set of Terms as ok when they are essentially identical. Both win or both lose. Stalemate.


Its just another thing for the crooks to ponder and decide if they really want to carry on with their lame action. And even if they win eventually, I will make sure there is no profit in it from the amount of their time I will have taken up.

meld3

Last question I'm struggling to find an answer on:


If after 27 days I discover who the driver really was, and I advise them, do they start again against the driver?


Also, If driver A parks the car (and accepts the Terms), but driver B is late collecting the car - who is liable - A for accepting Terms or B for breaking them ?