Employee Signed Off, but really...?!

tomtontom

pleasedelete wrote: »

I would think that getting so drunk that you throw up in your workplace (even if not at work) is gross misconduct /bringing the business into disrepute and you could sack instantly.

As an isolated incident I would agree, but there may be mitigation due to the employee's depression. This needs to be a two way thing - the employee needs to understand their behaviour is not acceptable and the employer needs to understand if there is a reason behind the incident. A decision should not be taken until such a discussion has happened.

Aquamania

Opinion wrote: »

...Maybe I should have made it clear in the first post; what I wanted to know was do people think that it is suitable behaviour to be signed off sick but turning up at your place of work getting drunk?

I don't think it makes any difference if they are your employee. To me, going to a bar and vomiting on the carpet is not suitable behaviour.

Aquamania

Opinion wrote: »

We have a policy about drinking during/before work, same goes for drugs- impossible not to in the industry. As a small business we don't, however, have a written policy regarding staff drinking while off sick... that's the issue here, not the drinking alone, per se.

I think the issue is that someone threw up over the bar carpet, due to drinking.

Don't you bar such individuals? Obviously not, so that's one potential customer you've lost.

Opinion

Aquamania wrote: »

I think the issue is that someone threw up over the bar carpet, due to drinking.

Don't you bar such individuals? Obviously not, so that's one potential customer you've lost.

The issue is a member of staff threw up over the carpet after turning up at the bar while signed off sick.

If it had been a customer we would have had them removed from the bar, yes, but it wasn't a customer, it was a member of staff. I'm not sure what you mean by losing a potential customer?

ohreally

Opinion wrote: »

The issue is a member of staff threw up over the carpet after turning up at the bar while signed off sick

Which policy have they breached?

Tread carefully.

Savvy_Sue

Opinion wrote: »

We have a policy about drinking during/before work, same goes for drugs- impossible not to in the industry. As a small business we don't, however, have a written policy regarding staff drinking while off sick... that's the issue here, not the drinking alone, per se.

Clearly, having a blanket policy about what staff and can and can't do in their own time and in their own place would be unreasonable.

However,staff being drunk on your premises at ANY time would be unacceptable behaviour IMO.

Just a question, but isn't it an offence to serve someone who's clearly had too many? Was it obvious before she threw up that she wasn't 'well'? if it was, you have another issue on your hands.

If you (or the company) are members of a trade association, that could be another source of relevant advice. But as someone who stays on the paying side of the bar, I expect staff to appear sober on the premises, on or off duty. I think anything else would reflect badly on the establishment.

Although to be fair, I don't frequent bars where the customers are obviously drunk either ... so maybe I'm unreasonable!

Mistral001

Opinion wrote: »

The issue is a member of staff threw up over the carpet after turning up at the bar while signed off sick.

If it had been a customer we would have had them removed from the bar, yes, but it wasn't a customer, it was a member of staff. I'm not sure what you mean by losing a potential customer?

I would ignore the getting drunk and being sick problem for now. I think the OP needs to get the responsibilities of an employer with regard to employees signed off sick clarified. Did this employee come back to work or were they just doing a day when times were busy? What were they paid?

Opinion

Mistral001 wrote: »

I would ignore the getting drunk and being sick problem for now. I think the OP needs to get the responsibilities of an employer with regard to employees signed off sick clarified. Did this employee come back to work or were they just doing a day when times were busy? What were they paid?

As I said in my original post, the employee in question was signed off with depression for two weeks by her GP. The employees usual working week would be Tuesday-Saturday, with Sunday and Monday off. They came in one week in to their two week sick leave, on a Friday evening. What were they paid? I'm not sure why that is relevant but all staff are paid PAYE (handled by our accountant) every Monday, and now the member of staff is being paid SSP (again, dealt with by our accountant)

ohreally wrote: »

Which policy have they breached?

Tread carefully.

This is the whole point of the thread. I would have thought that common sense dictates that if you take sick leave from your job you don't turn up half way through and get so drunk that you're vomiting in the corner. Do we have a specific policy against it? No. Just like we don't have a policy that specifically dictates that staff can't defecate on the carpet, wash their work uniform in the men's urinal and so on. My question is, "Is my employee too sick to work, sick enough to be signed off work for two weeks--and now a further four weeks--but is well enough to come in to work, get drunk and puke?"

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

However,staff being drunk on your premises at ANY time would be unacceptable behaviour IMO.

Just a question, but isn't it an offence to serve someone who's clearly had too many? Was it obvious before she threw up that she wasn't 'well'? if it was, you have another issue on your hands.

Although to be fair, I don't frequent bars where the customers are obviously drunk either ... so maybe I'm unreasonable!

Yes, staff being drunk during work time is an obvious no no and if that did happen they would be given a warning and sent home immediately. Thankfully this hasn't happened so far.

Yes, it is an offence to serve someone that has quite obviously had too much. We maintain refusal logs and everything related that is required by licencing. The issue here is the member of staff has been signed off sick. It isn't my place to tell the other staff what is wrong, other than that they won't be at work for a couple of weeks. If I start going in to detail about why they won't be at work I would be infringing their privacy. If I had been working at the time I obviously would have told the member of staff off sick that they couldn't be served and probably would have questioned how they were well enough for a night out, but I wasn't working, and as this member of staff is in a supervisory role to the rest of the staff they clearly haven't raised any issues or questions with regards to being served. To them, basically, they have been told that their immediate supervisor won't be working for a couple of weeks, and then they've had said supervisor turn up and ask for drinks. The staff wouldn't question how much they had had to drink as they would a regular customer.

Savvy_Sue

Opinion wrote: »

The staff wouldn't question how much they had had to drink as they would a regular customer.

Tricky, but personally I think your staff should have challenged. And your policies should make it clear that the person being paid to work behind the bar trumps the off-duty supervisor.

Right now I'm not sure what any of us can usefully say. I think you need good professional advice, which unless your trade association can provide you probably need to pay for.

Ask yourself, what would you have done if a non-sick member of staff had vomited in the bar? Suspend while you investigate (because you weren't there), disciplinary process and definitely a final written warning, if not dismissal, I'd imagine.

If workplace stress or bullying is a factor in the sickness you need to tread extra carefully, and it is always worth getting proper advice if you don't have an HR dept to turn to, but you can't just pretend it didn't happen or let her think it won't have consequences on her return to work.

remember, you can't offset her SSP against the company's NI bill any more, so this IS costing money and affecting staff morale.

Opinion

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

Tricky, but personally I think your staff should have challenged. And your policies should make it clear that the person being paid to work behind the bar trumps the off-duty supervisor.

Ask yourself, what would you have done if a non-sick member of staff had vomited in the bar? Suspend while you investigate (because you weren't there), disciplinary process and definitely a final written warning, if not dismissal, I'd imagine.

If workplace stress or bullying is a factor in the sickness you need to tread extra carefully, and it is always worth getting proper advice if you don't have an HR dept to turn to, but you can't just pretend it didn't happen or let her think it won't have consequences on her return to work.

remember, you can't offset her SSP against the company's NI bill any more, so this IS costing money and affecting staff morale.

Yes, they should have, and they all fully understand that now. The member of staff off sick, in a supervisory role, should know the limits. It can be very difficult to pull up your superior and tell them they've had enough (I can't imagine any of them telling me I couldn't have another drink, for example), and it can be very difficult to tell when someone has had enough. Everyone does seem to have lost a little respect though, having seen them puking in the corner and them having had to clean it up.

A member of staff coming in on their night off and having a few too many is one thing; a member of staff being signed off sick and coming in and having a few too many, to me, is different, and that's the point of this thread!! We all know their are rules out there to protect the employee, but what I'm asking is if there is anything to protect the employer (other than the 'two year rule') The sick leave is nothing to do with work and is due to home life and we've offered all the support we possibly can.

I also understand that it is costing me money and putting pressure on the rest of the team. I don't want to have this member of staff out to dry, but I also feel slightly taken advantage of, hence wondering where I stand legally (and morally?)